I have a pristine .22/.32. The SCSW doesn't pinpoint the year of mfg.
SN 229850, U-notch rear sight, SN on front strap, no chamber recess, 2-screw grips.

Is this a Bekeart and when was it mfg ?

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...made before 1922...no "Made in USA" address on the right front of the frame under the cylinder...

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A Country Boy Can Survive

The closest I have listed to yours is 2252xx shipping in 8/15. I'd guess yours is probably from 1916.

Mine is 221XX, and from 1916. Without a letter it isn't possible to know if it is an original Bekeart or not. The very first series had another "serial" number stamped on the grip bottom. These are know as the true Bekeart models. Yours as well as mine "could" be a later Bekeart, as they ordered more of the same model later than the original 1000 or so. A letter would state when and where the pistol was shipped to. The condition of yours is great, and may be worth getting it lettered.

Thanks for the info.

If you search 22/32 there is a lot of info, Hondo44 has one post that explains all of the variants of the Bekeart style pistols.

22/32 HFT, serial number 229850, was made Jan. 28, 1916, a part of an order to the Floor Foreman for 100 blued guns. You will need a factory historical letter to see when and where it was shipped. Ed.

A-37,

That's a genuine beauty!

Is the serial # penciled on the inside of the right grip match the gun #?
And if so does t by any chance have a 4 digit # stamped on the butt of the left side grip? If so, it's a 3rd class Bekeart.

If not, as Ed posted, the last possibility is if a letter indicates it shipped to Bekeart Guns in SF, CA.


The FOUR BASIC CLASSIFICATIONS of the “.22/32 Bekeart Model 1911” in order of their collectability and value are summarized below from the SCS&W, 3rd edition and other sources:

In April 25, 1911 an order for the 1st production run of 1050 serial #s, of the Model 1911 Bekeart models began in the serial range of # 138226 thru # 139275, completed on July 10, 1911. Only 1044 revolvers were actually completed/shipped and their grips were #’d 1 - 1044. The 1st 3000 guns were numbered 1 to 3000 on the butt of the left stock in the order that they were assembled.

1st classification, the "True" Bekearts, the “Model 1911 22/32 Bekeart HFTs” are the 294 (lately revised from 292 by Roy Jinks) from that original production run on the known serial number list within the above serial range that were actually shipped to Bekeart.

2nd class of Bekearts are the remainder of the guns in that 1044 production run and serial range that went to other dealers.

3rd class of Bekearts is the remainder with grip number order of assembly from #1045 to #3000, shipped to Bekeart or not, after which grip #s were discontinued, but there is no official factory 'list' of serial numbers for this class, albeit there are accumulated partial lists from lettered guns; the grip number and with grip serial number matching the gun, being sufficient to identify them along with a factory letter.

4th and last class, is any “22/32 Heavy Frame Target” from after the 1st production run that 'letters' as being shipped to Bekeart Sporting goods in S.F., since there is no official serial number list for this class.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I only show two serial numbers in the 229XXX range in my database. 229,957 which is a barrel that I own shipped on 9/8/1916 to F.H. Wesson and 229,988 which shipped on 7/20/1916 to Wm. Hoegee in LA, CA.

So as you can see, the higher serial number shipped before the lower one. That is why it is difficult to pinpoint shipping dates by serial number. If I were to offer a guesstimate, I would say second half of 1916 but as others have stated, only a letter will say for sure. Or for $60 a year you can join the S&WCA and ask Roy Jinks for shipping dates all year for free.

As for the left stock imprint numbers on the reportedly first 3,000 guns, I show no guns so stamped after the 5 M.W. Robinson shipments in the beginning of 1914 that totaled 490 guns except one in 1926 with 581 stamped on the left stock bottom. Obviously those stocks are from a much earlier gun. Of those guns, the highest recorded stock imprint number is 2582.

The next serial number to show up after the Robinson guns is 220,166 that shipped on 7/9/1914 and went to Bourne & Bond, Louisville, KY. Of the remaining 375 guns that I have recorded thereafter going up into the 1940's, not one has shown up with the 4 digit left stock imprint.

As to additional shipments to Bekeart in San Francisco, I have 7 guns listed that shipped to him after the initial run of 1050 guns was produced of which he received 294.

Five shipped on 5/18/1912, 163,101/?, 163,198/1168, 163,238/1192, 163,248/1106, and 163,341/1164.

Two shipped on 6/3/1912, 163,662/1615 and 163,698/?.

So it is safe to say that Bekeart received additional guns in the 163,XXX range in the spring of 1912. How many is not known however, there is an ad floating around wherein Bekeart claims to have received an additional 1,000 guns. Seeing how he only took 294 of the first 1050 produced, it is yet unknown how many he actually received from this second 1,000.

After these entries, no other Bekeart shipped guns have shown up in my database.

Perhaps Ed has production records for the guns in the 163,101 and up range??????

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James Redfield
LM #497

Quote Hondo44:

"Is the serial # penciled on the inside of the right grip match the gun #?
And if so does t by any chance have a 4 digit # stamped on the butt of the left side grip? If so, it's a 3rd class Bekeart."

No number penciled on the right grip. Judging from the unmolested screw slots and the outstanding condition of the gun, I doubt if the grips are replacements. A seller of questionable integrity could easily pencil the SN on the grip and who would ever know?

No 4-digit number is stamped on the butt of the left grip.

The wealth of knowledge on this forum concerning a .22/.32 is incredible.

Not being a serious collector, I don't understand the importance of whether or not it's a Bekeart. The big question is: If I were to list it without a Jinks letter, what's it worth?

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The SCSW, 4th says Exc: $2000, Fine: $1250, VG: $700. If it shipped to Bekeart after the first shipment, add 10% to 50%.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Generally faked #s are not positioned correctly, written on both grips, etc., all indications of fakery.

If you post a photo of the right grip back side, we may be able to see it; it's 100+ years old but photos can enhance the lead pencil digits. This has worked before.

Please take the photo with grip lying on its rear edge to read the # right side up.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The reason is that San Francisco gun dealer and west coast S&W representative Phillip Bekeart is credited with the design of this gun. Prior to this, the small M frame .22 revolver known by collectors as the Ladysmith was the only .22 revolver offered by S&W. There were larger .22 single shots but no revolvers.

According to the story, Bekeart approached S&W in 1908 and suggested that if they could produce a larger .22 revolver that he could sell them like hotcakes. He suggested that they use the larger I frame platform that was being used for their .32 caliber revolvers. S&W was reluctant to retool to make this new design without having a significant order of at least 1,000 guns. Again as the story goes, Bekeart offered to purchase 1,000 of this new revolver if S&W would proceed.

As history now tells us, S&W did do the retooling and produced 1050 .22 revolvers built on the larger I frame used for their .32's. Hence the name .22/.32 indicating a .22 caliber gun built on the .32 caliber frame.

Now this is where the story gets really weird. Bekeart as we now know only took delivery of 294 of the first 1050 guns produced with the first shipment to him going out on 6/7/1911. However within days of that shipment and as early as 6/16/1911, other S&W dealers were also receiving shipments of the .22/32 HFT. The HFT standing for Heavy Frame Target which by today's standards is not really heavy at all.

So collectors place special emphasis on those 294 guns that originally shipped to Bekeart I guess the way that there are Mustangs and Shelby mustangs. Beyond those 294, collectors feel that then any gun shipped thereafter to Bekeart has increased value.

In addition for some unknown reason, S&W decided to stamp a number into the left stock bottom signifying the order in which each gun was assembled. There is no correlation to the guns serial number and it merely tells us the order in which a particular gun was assembled.

I think that the Standard Catalogs prices are a little exaggerated as I follow these guns online and at gun shows and most decent examples can be had for around $700-$800. I have 3 Bekeart shipped guns and 2 M.W. Robinson shipped guns in my collection and never paid over that for any of them. Unless the gun has a real unique shipping destination or went to someone of significance or comes with its original Bekeart labeled box, I think that those prices are high.

I have included a photo of my collection of .22/32's which includes the factory prototype.

I hope that helps.

(Click on the photo twice to enlarge it.)

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James Redfield
LM #497

JRS III in an earlier post you said you had info on 226160, shipping on 1 April 1916 my 22/32 is one serial number away.. Do you have the location it was shipped to? I bought the 22/32 from a CA family that originated in Northern CA. Mine is a shooter grade, about 50% blue but dang it is accurate and fun to shot.

Well I guess I will just get a letter, seems folks want to know the serial number to include in a data base but will not share the info they have. Either in posts or via PM's received or sent. Not a problem, I appreciate all of the knowledge I have gleamed from those who post.

Be glad to share serial #s/dates. We don't automatically post them because the databases are large and would fill most of a page in a thread.

Your # 221XX is missing a digit. Here's #s around what yours likely is:

208,260 / 2582 (highest stock # known) shipped 3/19/1914
208403 / Grip # 2398 ~ late 1914
208,410 /Grip # 2431 (highest s/n known w/stock #) shipped 2-27-1914
221548 shipped 5/10/1915
221549 Paine sight, gold medallions
222XXX about 1916 Paine sight, Targets w/ gold medallions
225052 Patridge sight which is sometimes found in the earliest versions.
225222 8/9/15

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I am not sure if it is my database that you are referring to but I am always willing to share whatever I can about these guns or any S&W's in my collection. It is possible that I missed a request in a thread because when you have posted over 7,000 times it is difficult to follow up on all of the threads you have posted in. Certainly I have never not answered a PM.

That said, 226160 is listed in my database shipping on 4/1/1916 to an O.C. Alderman with no destination listed. There are also no other details about the gun. You must remember that my information is taken from folks kind enough to supply it here, reviewing the factory records, online auctions, for sale postings here and shipping date requests posted in the S&WCA section of this forum. I do not keep the names of the current owners or where the information came from. Why I have the shipping date and only the owners name is a mystery to me.

The purpose of the database, for me, was to try to determine as best possible when various changes occurred such as sights, stocks, extractor knob size and especially the left stock imprint numbers that appear on the first 2582 revolvers made. I am also trying to determine if Bekeart did in fact receive an additional large block of guns as mentioned in his ad stating that he had a second 1000 guns made exclusively for sale by his San Francisco store.

So, there you have it. Even if 226160 had shipped to a particular destination, there is no guarantee that 226159 or 226161 shipped there as well.

As an example, out of the first 6 guns listed in ascending serial number order from 138,226 to 138,231, and all shipped in June of 1911, Bekeart received 3 but other folks received 3 as well.

Again showing that S&W made no effort to ship in sequential serial number order to any one destination. The only order that belies that procedure is the 490 guns shipped in 1914 to M.W. Robinson in NYC where all of the 5 shipments include 490 sequential serial numbers. Again, the numbers may have been mixed up within each individual shipment but in the end he received 490 sequential guns.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Pics attached. I can't see any clue to a number.

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I admire the willingness of some forum members to help (FREE, I might add) with histories of old S&Ws. This is in stark contrast to $75(!) for a Jinks letter.

http://www.theswca.org/forms/Letter_request_form.pdf

Of course, the value added to a gun by having a Jinks letter with the impressed seal, is not to be underestimated.

I believe the information that Roy provides comes from a different source than the database. He has actual shipping records. The database has been compiled from information submitted by gun owners and not all guns are in there nor is there uniform info on the gun configuration. Plus, there are many members who maintain their own tracking information for guns they are interested in. And, I strongly agree with you that members willing to share that information is a strength of this community.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

I see the # in the middle ending at the medallion stud.
I can see 6 digits but can only make out three as 71X4 at the end, but enough to know unfortunately that it does not match the gun.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim, my only correction would be that 208403 is one of the 490 M.W. Robinson guns and shipped on 2/19/1914 not late 1914.

Just to be clear, the shipping dates that Roy provides free to members of the S&WCA in that forum are from the shipping records that he has. A history letter requires that he go to the museum and pull the original invoice for the gun to see what configuration it shipped in. The shipping records only give the serial number and the date shipped and destination. In order to determine if the gun is blue, green or purple requires looking at the original invoice.

So it requires a trip to the museum where those records are stored, time to locate and pull the invoice and then transcribe the information. Then back to his home office where he then inputs the information into a letter, signs it, embosses it with the seal, stuffs into an envelope which must be addressed, stamped and mailed.

Exactly how much would you charge to provide that service?

This doesn't even take into consideration the value added to the gun. Roy Jinks is an iconic figure in the gun world and probably knows more about S&W's and the history of the company than any other man alive. His signature alone will probably be a collectors item someday.

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James Redfield
LM #497

This looks like a job for the NCIS lab. You could be right. But when I look at it under a magnifying glass while tilting it under various lights, I see swirls and grain in the wood but no numbers.

Do you see stamped numbers or penciled numbers?

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Penciled, but they show on your middle photo. Photos work the best to see old penciled #s.

Penciled #s used from 1900 until 1929. Stamped #s before that since 1857, and after until ~1980 when stock #s were deleted.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thank you James!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

This is a BARGAIN! Other manufacturers, like Colt and the Cody Firearms Museum charge more, provide a less detailed letter, and/or lack the signature of a true legend like Roy!

JRS III, Hondo44,
Thank you for the information. I did indeed leave a number out. 226161. I was at a retirement going away before posting.. Not a good idea, to post after several libations.. I apologize. Like A-37 said, looking for cheaper info. I will get a letter anyway as this one is the oldest gun I own and shoot. A-37 that one is a beauty.

Believe it or not, my .22/32 is my newest Smith & Wesson revolver--and it shipped in 1927.