I have a victory model serial # V333350 with the Red Property of U.S. Navy on the left side under the cylinder release .
It has the flaming bomb and U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D. on the top strap . It is all matching but the stocks. I bought this back in 07 from a local gun shop that got it and several others from a local police dept. that had it for a very long time.
I see that the Red Navys are suppose bring a premium over a standard Victory. I'll try to post pic's.

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They don't show up for sale often enough to have a reliably predictable "market value", but you can definitely expect a few hundred at least above what the gun depending on condition would be worth without. I've seen a few priced well over 1000, although I can't say whether they sold. Other than the relative rarity of the marking, there is nothing special about their use or history.

I have always been very suspicious of those because they could be so easily faked by anyone with access to an engraving machine and some paint. Also because (I think) most of them with that property engraving occurred at much lower SNs. The highest SN on my list of one with the engraving is V136xxx (which could itself be a fake), but someone else may have examples of higher SNs which are engraved. And I don't believe that there is any possible way to authenticate one with the engraving, as it was not performed by S&W. At least to me, it might be worth no more than a slight premium due to the authenticity determination problem.

Pate on pg. 141 shows a picture of V 261988, lettered as shipped to USN Oakland 3/20/43, with the side stamping.

He seems to accept it as the real thing. But he does not address the authentication problem and the relative ease of producing a fake brought up above. It appears impossible to verify in an ironclad fashion; even comparisons with others only increase probabilities, as the absence of documentation ultimately makes it impossible to be 100% certain which "real ones" are "real".

I doubt that any extra premium that a faker might think they could achieve by faking a Red navy stamp, well enough to fool a serious Victory collector, would be worth the effort or cost of obtaining the correct equipment for doing the stamping. I spent most of WW2 as a young lad in San Diego, delivering newspapers to soldiers, sailors and Marines berthed at various bases and shipyards. I saw many types of ordnance, including Victory models issued to Navy and Marine aircrews with the Red Navy stamp. I also saw it on other equipment from small arms to tools and fixtures. The stamp was always the same in size and with the red paint fill in of the letters. I believe the armorers applied the stamps. After WW2 the swap meets and gun shows around San Diego hand quite a bit of various items of Navy surplus, including guns, with the Red Navy stamp. Ed.

Just to give you an idea from the archive, last year a forum member offered a Red letter Victory for sale at $1995, then dropped it to $1595, then bailed without a sale. Some weeks later he offered it for $850 and sold it. Pretty typical.

If the originals were indeed 'stamped',,it would be w/ individual letter stamps and if done by armorers I assume (bad thing,, I know) that it was done by hand and hammer blows. Maybe a jig to hold the stamps in allignment but they still need to be hit near individually to give a good impression on such a large imprint area. Metal displacement from the stamps would be present around each letter yet as it was done after the guns were factory finished.

A one piece/one strike stamp to get that deep would need a powerful strike for a deep even impression. The frame needing to be backed up to prevent deforming in the process.

That's why roll-dies are the general use impression die for such as they impart max force at the absolute minimum of contact as they 'roll' along.

The other method to imprint/mark would be the use of a rotary pantograph.
This type of cut can be spotted easily from a hand stamped impression by looking closely the letters, magnification helps.
The cuts that the rotary cutter makes in cutting each letter are left behind, just as milling marks are left behind on larger machined surfaces.
They unmistakable.
Also, the rotary cutter no matter how tiny cannot make square cut outside corners to the letters or leave squared off end cuts as either hand stamps or a roll die can (if the latter two were made in that fashion). A pantograph cut like this would cut through and blue of park finish to the white as on the OP gun,
Done with stamps, the finish would be disturbed but since no metal is removed, most of the original finish remains in the stampings plus the metal around the stamping is raised up a bit as it has to go somewhere.

Maybe the original Victorys with this marking were done w/a Pantograph,,I don't know,,just going on the statement earlier that they were 'stamped' and describing differences in the techniques and what they leave behind to show us how the marking was done.

Many modern sets of hand stamp numbers and letters have themselves rounded end stems and corners as the dies are mass produced on pantograph and later EDM equipment.
A hand cut die or stamp has it's own character.

Just some thoughts.

Pate's wording is that the inscription is "... usually stamped but may be engraved." That indicates either a lack of uniformity or certainty what it is, which makes things even less predictable

Interesting post by 2152hq. My apologies for cutting down his quote to the essential points.

Perhaps someone would have a close up photo of a known probably original (although how do you know it really was an original?) and compare that to a close up photo of a known probably fake.

Perhaps someone knows exactly how the red "Property of U.S. Navy" marking was made - hand stamped versus roll dye versus rotary panto-graph versus some possible other method?

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Scoundrel & Ne'er-Do-Well

I have personally seen only one - and it appeared to have been done by an engraving machine (or a rotary pantograph), not by stamping.

The gun in the OP looks cut w/a rotary pantograph when you enlarge the pic. I can't see the machine cuts but the rounded ends and outside corners are there. Deeply cut and through the original finish cleanly into the white steel. No disturbed or bumped up edges as with a stamped or roll die marking.

If a lot of marking to different equipment and items was to be done, that would be a good way to do it IMO. The markings would be repeatable over and over w/professional results but still be able to be changed to different sizes by simply adj the pantograph machines frame.
That's one beauty of the machines design.
No need for different size stamp or stamp set for larger and smaller markings.
The tracer on the machine needs only to follow the same size master, not a different one for each different size cut you would want to make.

No stamp(s) or dies to wear out,,and they do, from repeated use.
Just a master, and change the little cutter head when they get dull. The cutters are not unlike tiny dentist burrs. Different sizes and shapes, ect.
It will mark less than perfect flat surfaces as it cuts rather than impresses. So a depth setting for the cut can get by any less than perfect surfaces encountered on the items to be marked.

The rotary pantographs were/are metal cutting machines. They were refered to as 'engraving machines' .
The type more frequently seen in the mall kiosk type engraving shops were 'drag point' pantographs.
The hardened steel point on those does not rotate nor cut the surface but mearly as the name implies imprints by being pulled or dragged across the surface of the article to be marked. A very light impression results.

On my last job we had a computerized engraving machine for guns. Sort of like a word processor, but connected to a motorized cutting head. Just clamp in the item you need engraved, type in the words, punch the button, and away it goes. Very versatile, can use about any font typeface you want, even script. Of course those did not exist during WWII, but the pantograph machines certainly did. Similar computerized engraving machines are used for making things like pet identification tags. They have them at Pet Smart, etc. I guess I could have cranked out hundreds of Red Navy Victories had I been so inclined (and if I also had some original Navy Victories to engrave).

I'd like to thank everyone for the input on my Red Navy Victory Model.

From the ones I have seen or photos of same, this one looks authentic. Enjoy!

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I have one so marked in the same serial number range.

Here is one of mine.

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You have to stand on your head to see these pictures. Haha. Can someone fix it?

Hm. Not to be a spoilsport, but that one would raise some question marks, based on the very late serial number V 330665 for a side-plate marked Navy gun. Generally, side-plate stamping petered out after the US NAVY stamp on the topstrap started to appear in late spring/early summer 1942, (which makes double-stamped ones a bit of an oddity and collectable), but yours has a US PROPERTY stamp from almost a year later. Not saying it's not possible, but very unusual. Charles Pate shows one double stamped US NAVY gun V 261988 from 3/1943, but I'm not sure whether we've ever had a US PROPERTY and red-letter-side-stamped example before.

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Did you tip your phone to the right when you took those pics? That'll do it every time.

Mark

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S&W Forum Member #721

Except for the one in the original post in this thread.



Mark

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S&W Forum Member #721

I saw one that was purchased directly from a Ct police department in the same serial number range red navy marked. I met the shop owner that got it directly from the police department who got 5 Guns from the US government in the 1950s. Someone posted it here a couple of years ago. This one came from a very serious well known collector. Pm me for his name. Who knows for sure. I have an early one double marked also. It’s probably easier to accept as correct.

A red Victory also just sold on gunbroker tonight. Early serial number range.

DUH! I must be getting old. Wait, I am actually getting old. Darn.

Excellent point though. I should have looked through the old discussion, where we actually discussed the high serial and fakery issue inconclusively.

I don't think it has been established where the sideplate marking was applied, but it was not at the factory as far as I know like the topstrap stampings. So likely some Navy facility or other. If we have several late ones within the same serial vicinity, it's conceivable they ended up at the same place and there some armorer apprentice decided to practice his engraving skills, a few months later than the late one documented by Pate.

Pure conjecture, but more likely than someone just coincidentally faking a batch of close serial numbered guns.

I actually read through the old thread and sudddenly had a déjà vu moment before realizing it was in fact an older discussion. I'm old too.

Mark

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S&W Forum Member #721

Thanks for bringing up yesterdays auction. The s/n on my double stamp is 417 numbers higher and likely shipped in the same batch. Just eyeballing it the Navy property marking appears to be identical in size, font and location. I did notice that the S&W applied U.S. NAVY roll stamp on the top strap is much farther to the rear on mine. Its a shame that attempts to enhance the value of already historical revolvers has made all double stamps suspect.

The US NAVY topstrap stamp has also been known to be the victim of forgery, although that one can be more positively confirmed with a letter. Usually unmarked DSC guns, widely available in good condition, were fake-stamped. But the letter would show the gun going to a DSC recipient. However, adding red-letter engraving to an already genuine Navy-stamped gun is pretty much an unprovable fake if it’s done skillfully enough.

Since it's too cold to work in the yard or go to the range I did an internet search of pictures of U.S. NAVY roll stamps on Victory's and they all seem to be the same size and font but the horizontal position varies quite a bit. My example has the bottom of the Y in line with the rear of the cylinder flutes while others were forward or aft of that datum in varying degrees. I do have a DSC Victory but it has the "P" proof mark on the upper left side plate and flaming bomb on the bottom of the grip frame. A Navy with these marks would be highly suspect to me.

All I can contribute is that I saw a few of the red lettered ones while in the USAF. We got a lot of Victory Model .38's from the Navy in the early 1960's, when the newly-adopted Combat Masterpiece was in short supply.

Most had just the US Navy stamp on the topstrap. I'm not sure that all even had that. But I didn't like those red-lettered guns marked on the left of the frame, and preferred the normal ones.

Personally , I wouldn't buy the red-lettered ones as they offend me visually, but can see how a collector would want one.

My reason for mentioning this is that I've heard that ALL of those red-marked guns are fakes. That can't be true, as I saw them while on active duty, before they left US Govt. custody.

I've seen a handful through the years.
The markings are engraved with a rotary cutter, NOT stamped.

Just for clarity-
A "sideplate" is a specific part on an S&W. It is a "plate" on the right side that comes off. The left side of the frame is simply the left side of the frame.
Hyphenating the wurd don't change nuthin.
When I see sideplate or side-plate or side plate, my mind immediately visualizes the right side of the gun, where the sideplate is.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

You mean “the lid”!

But indeed, here we would be perfectly clear just talking about the left side.

I did a search of Navy double stamp completed sales and as someone else already said prices were all over the place. Around $1,000 at the low end and $2,850 for one with solid documentation (V36686). Those with S/N's under V50000 were bringing the better money.