2" M&P Transition, 4" 38/44HD Transition-RECEIVED

LLOYD17 · #1 08-21-2017, 07:20 PM

Went from no transitions to 2 this week. Can't wait for them to come in.

HD: See Post 40
Finish challenged, apparently jams up after multiple trigger pulls, no idea if it's been reamed. We'll see when it gets here.
S72319

M&P:
S955372

DWalt · #2 08-21-2017, 07:35 PM

S72319 probably shipped in early 1949. Yours is one of the last of the long-action HDs - Maybe the last one. Allegedly somewhere around SN S72300 the changeover to the short action occurred. For that HD, whether the chambers have been elongated to .357 or not makes little difference. Price was OK. Most any lower condition HD will bring $500. Whatever the problem, it will be fixable.

jmace57 · #3 08-21-2017, 08:01 PM

Heck, the stocks are worth $200+! My all-time favorite S&W!

Housepuss · #4 08-21-2017, 08:29 PM

Love these 38-44 wheel guns. I've got one like yours from 1948, a bit beat up, correct style grips but not matching. When it goes to the range with me no body can guess what it is, and when I tell them, a bunch of folks never heard of that model before.

One of my all time favorite S&W's, and a great shooter.

bengal fan · #5 08-21-2017, 09:03 PM

Congrats! I seen that one on GB last night & was definitely tempted. Should make a great shooter once you get it corrected. I love the long actions on the pre wars & transitionals!
Enjoy
Paul

robertrwalsh · #6 08-21-2017, 09:05 PM

Unless it turns out to be scrap you did OK, probably even very OK.

CQB27 · #7 08-21-2017, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWalt

S72319 probably shipped in early 1949. Yours is one of the last of the long-action HDs - Maybe the last one. Allegedly somewhere around SN S72300 the changeover to the short action occurred. For that HD, whether the chambers have been elongated to .357 or not makes little difference. Price was OK. Most any lower condition HD will bring $500. Whatever the problem, it will be fixable.

I have a 4 line transitional that shipped in May of 1949. SN S72463, so the long action hung around a bit longer I guess.

Glashaus · #8 08-21-2017, 10:22 PM

I have a finished challenged HD as well , 74447 shipped June 14, 1949. Shoots a lot better then it looks!! These HD's are great old revolvers, very old school!

Dave T · #9 08-22-2017, 11:26 AM

Congratulations on a great buy. You probably saved it from the crowd who think all these old 4" HDs are good for is to convert them to 44 Specials or 45 Colts.

Once you get the problem with the action/cylinder solved you need to try some real 38/44s to fully appreciate what you have. A hand load with a 158g bullet (not jacketed) at ~1125 fps will give you a feel of what the 38/44 was all about back in 1930 when it was introduced.

If you don't hand load try a box of Buffalo Bore Heavy 158g +P 38 Specials. They are as close to the original as you will find today.

Again, congratulations.

Dave

kaaskop49 · #10 08-22-2017, 11:38 AM

HDs are wonderful guns: I have a 5" nickeled from the early 50s (Remind me I have to clear it's throat again!). Sadly, a few years back, there was a shooting at a casino-club: angry patron shooting a security guard. Caught on security cams: the shooter used a .38-44 HD. Broke my heart to see a fine old gun used feloniously, and that someone was shot for no reason...

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

DWalt · #11 08-22-2017, 11:45 AM

The whole idea of the HD was that its greater mass helped to control the increased recoil of the .38-44 cartridge. Also made the HD more effective as a club.

DCWilson · #12 08-22-2017, 07:54 PM

As to the highest known serial numbers on a postwar transitional HD, several guns are reported with serial numbers in the S75xxx range. The highest number I have seen is just above S75700. I don't recall ever seeing or learning of a transitional HD with a serial number in the S76xxx range or above.

There are several Model of 1950 (Pre-20) HDs in the S77xxx range. The gun carrying the serial number S76616 is called a Pre-20 in a couple of places, but our HD expert 1Aspenhill has reported that it is not even a Heavy Duty.

S75622 has been labeled a Pre-20, but I think that must be an erroneous classification or perhaps a misrecorded serial number. I have not seen pictures.

janman · #13 08-24-2017, 04:31 PM

After reading this post I'm now confused. Is a 38/44 HD called a pre-Model of 1950? Or is it considered a Pre-20? Or just a Heavy Duty. What should I call mine? 4 inch bbl., SN S66xxx.

DWalt · #14 08-24-2017, 04:47 PM

In 1948-49 S&W called it a ".38/44 Heavy Duty Service Model." You should also. S&W never called any of their guns as being "pre-(anything)"

janman · #15 08-24-2017, 05:02 PM

While I'm here, any guess as to the value of this gem? Two sons in college and they're both hitting me up for their tuition. I've had this since the late 80's and it may be time to move it down the road.

janman · #16 08-24-2017, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWalt

In 1948-49 S&W called it a ".38/44 Heavy Duty Service Model." You should also. S&W never called any of their guns as being "pre-(anything)"

Correct Sir, although S&W never used the term "Pre" to name their guns, plenty of people here do. BTW, is that the time frame for SN S66xxx?

DWalt · #17 08-24-2017, 05:22 PM

"BTW, is that the time frame for SN S66xxx?"

That would be the 1946-47 period. I show HD S660xx shipping in 7/46.

DWalt · #18 08-24-2017, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janman

While I'm here, any guess as to the value of this gem? Two sons in college and they're both hitting me up for their tuition. I've had this since the late 80's and it may be time to move it down the road.

I don't like to make value estimates, but I don't think you would have any difficulty in moving it in the $700-$800 range, maybe even a little more, in a private treaty transaction. Not with a dealer, pawnshop, etc. Look on GunBroker to see if you can locate any recent sales for similar HDs.

janman · #19 08-24-2017, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWalt

I don't like to make value estimates, but I don't think you would have any difficulty in moving it in the $700-$800 range, maybe even a little more, in a private treaty transaction. Not with a dealer, pawnshop, etc. Look on GunBroker to see if you can locate any recent sales for similar HDs.

Much appreciated. Re: a previous comment, are N frame diamond magnas really worth $200? EBay is all over the place on asking prices for vintage S&W stocks.

DWalt · #20 08-24-2017, 07:16 PM

Yes. A fairly high condition pair of N-frame diamond Magnas can easily bring that, especially earlier ones (pre-1953 style). Pre-WWII Magnas, even more. You might look up actual sales prices on eBay.

janman · #21 08-24-2017, 07:23 PM

There seems to be quite a gap between asking and "sold for" on EBay. N Frame targets range from $75 to $300. Its hard to get a fair reference point.

1Aspenhill · #22 08-24-2017, 08:10 PM

Yes, there are HDs in the S75000 range that were shipped in 1950, as well as those in the S74000 range. Just depended on where they were in the pile in the vault.

1Aspenhill · #23 08-25-2017, 10:52 AM

Update, the latest serial number for a long action that I have is S75704.
Bill

DCWilson · #24 08-25-2017, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janman

After reading this post I'm now confused. Is a 38/44 HD called a pre-Model of 1950? Or is it considered a Pre-20? Or just a Heavy Duty. What should I call mine? 4 inch bbl., SN S66xxx.

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse. On rereading, see how dropping all those serial numbers and undefined labels in a pile could lead to lack of clarity.

Your gun would be identified by collectors or classifiers as a postwar transitional HD. I have S66842, which shipped to Chicago on 7/18/1946. I would guess yours shipped in July or August, but it would take a research letter to set a firm date.

Value? I have to raise the question of whether your HD has been refinished. The only thing that makes me ask is that the end of the hammer stud appears to have been slightly flattened. That happens when a frame is re-polished before going into the bluing vat. If that is the original finish, then the gun might be worth close to $1000 to a collector looking for a good (and early) transitional HD. If it has been refinished, collector value is diminished but I would think it might still bring $600 or more.

1Aspenhill · #25 08-25-2017, 12:21 PM

Most of the 4" S66000 serial numbered HDs shipped in 1946. There are some, mostly 5" and to MSHP, that shipped in 1948. If you send me your serial number, I will see if I have any info on it. As I understand, any postwar HD from 1946 to 1950 that does not have the short action and 1950 hammer is a transition gun. From basically S72000 to S75514 they are all Heavy Duties.

Dave T · #26 08-25-2017, 12:36 PM

You guys are confusing me with dates and serial numbers (yea, I'm kind of slow - lol). I have a 4" HD, serial number 655XX.

I was told it was from 1946 but there was no mention of it being a "transition" gun. Is that what I have or is it just a post-War HD as I originally thought?

Dave

lebomm · #27 08-25-2017, 01:16 PM

DaveT,
Is there no "S" in your serial #?

Janman,
In general, the short-action Model of 1950 guns made before 1957 (the start of model numbering) are the ones called "Pre-20". Yours is a Transitional as, I believe, is Dave's above. The Transitionals are the long-action guns that embody the 1945 sliding hammer block safety, hence the "S" in the serial #s.

Larry

Dave T · #28 08-25-2017, 01:32 PM

Larry,

No "S" to be seen on the butt of this one.

Dave

Wiregrassguy · #29 08-25-2017, 02:28 PM

It is not unheard of for post-war "S" SN guns to be missing the S.

lebomm · #30 08-25-2017, 02:29 PM

Well, I guess that would make yours a HD made before 1945. When you remove the sideplate to clean the innards, check to see whether it has a sliding hammer block actuated by the rebound slide, or a sideplate-mounted hammer block actuated by a "fin" on the hand. The former is the 1945 improvement, and usually bears an "S" serial #. The latter is the pre-war style, making your gun NOT a Transitional.

Larry

Wiregrassguy · #31 08-25-2017, 02:45 PM

Just cock the hammer and take a side view picture. If there is a notch below the hammer nose, it is a post-war hammer with the hammer block. The SN is several thousand above the last known pre-war gun.

Dave T · #32 08-25-2017, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy

The SN is several thousand above the last known pre-war gun.

I never thought it was a pre-War. I was told it was a 1946 and Aspenhill's comment of, "Most of the 4" S66000 serial numbered HDs shipped in 1946." would lead me to believe I have the date (year) correct. My question was if it is a "transitional" or just a post-War HD.

Dave

LLOYD17 · #33 08-26-2017, 05:30 PM

Added the 2" M&P transition

Absalom · #34 08-26-2017, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LLOYD17

Added the 2" M&P transition

That's a nice one. I think I saw that on GB.

Many people, including me, don't particularly like the "transition" label in respect to the S-prefix M&P's. There is really nothing transitional about them. Since, in contrast to the HD, M&P production was never interrupted by the war and continued straight through with the same basic engineering features (just a different finish and stocks) until 1948, any distinction between pre-and post-war makes little sense. Unless one wants to elevate the new hammer block safety in 1944/45 to a major watershed, the significant marker was 1948, not the war.

LLOYD17 · #35 08-26-2017, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absalom

That's a nice one. I think I saw that on GB.

Many people, including me, don't particularly like the "transition" label in respect to the S-prefix M&P's. There is really nothing transitional about them. Since, in contrast to the HD, M&P production was never interrupted by the war and continued straight through with the same basic engineering features (just a different finish and stocks) until 1948, any distinction between pre-and post-war makes little sense. Unless one wants to elevate the new hammer block safety in 1944/45 to a major watershed, the significant marker was 1948, not the war.

I see what you're saying on the M&P changes. Possibly more accurate to call it a post-war long action M&P? Both frame size transitions are addressed in the SCSW which is what I was going off of.

Absalom · #36 08-26-2017, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LLOYD17

..... Possibly more accurate to call it a post-war long action M&P? ....

Yep, that's what I would be happy with

Of course, some of my esteemed fellow collectors may have different perspectives, and they won't be shy about speaking up. All this is just ex-post-facto collector-speak anyway. S&W just called it the 38 Military and Police

1Aspenhill · #37 08-26-2017, 11:59 PM

Dave, check the other serial numbers on the barrel, cylinder, crane for the "S". Yours is not a pre war gun, I believe it has had the s removed from the butt.

janman · #38 08-27-2017, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCWilson

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse. On rereading, see how dropping all those serial numbers and undefined labels in a pile could lead to lack of clarity.

Your gun would be identified by collectors or classifiers as a postwar transitional HD. I have S66842, which shipped to Chicago on 7/18/1946. I would guess yours shipped in July or August, but it would take a research letter to set a firm date.

Value? I have to raise the question of whether your HD has been refinished. The only thing that makes me ask is that the end of the hammer stud appears to have been slightly flattened. That happens when a frame is re-polished before going into the bluing vat. If that is the original finish, then the gun might be worth close to $1000 to a collector looking for a good (and early) transitional HD. If it has been refinished, collector value is diminished but I would think it might still bring $600 or more.

David, regarding your suspicion of a refinish, the frame edges and contours are pretty crisp, and the S&W logo on the sideplate appears sufficiently puckered. Here's some closeups.

Wiregrassguy · #39 08-27-2017, 09:58 AM

Dave T,
Here is what the Standard Catalog of S&W, 4th Edition, says:

Identifying characteristics of Transitional N frames The usual quick visual clue for a Transitional will be the combination of both:

• Prewar long action including distinctive flat sided prewar style hammer without the flared side on the cocking spur, with…

• A postwar matte or satin finish and S-prefix postwar serial number and a hammer block safety.

Other characteristics vary. Many of these were phased in, so the exact characteristics of Transitional Models may show variations. Since guns were not necessarily assembled in s/n order, older features may appear on higher numbered guns. Some features to consider on Transitionals include:

• One line “Made in U.S.A.” frame marking (no “Marcas Registradas”).

• Ejector head slightly larger than rod diameter.

• Grips may be of prewar configuration, but with a smaller checked area, coarser lines, and postwar medallions. Postwar K frames may have prewar grips, especially on round butt models.

• Postwar Transitional target models will generally have the micrometer click style adjustable rear sight.

(Page 180).

LLOYD17 · #40 08-31-2017, 05:22 PM

Received today. Matching stocks, not bored out for 357, dirty and gummed up as all get out, and pretty heavy corrosion on the right side of the barrel and top strap. The bore and chambers look great and the hammer seems to get hung up randomly in both double and single action.

This will be getting a full deep cleaning as soon as possible.

Dave T · #41 09-01-2017, 12:21 PM

Lloyd,

Not pretty but I bet it's a great shooter. Clean off the rust, find someone who knows Smiths and get the hang up with the hammer fixed and enjoy that great old service revolver.

And to Larry & Guy, my 1946 does have an "S" on the butt. When I ran out to the shop to double check I picked up the wrong Heavy Duty. Glanced at the butt of my 1938 HD instead of the 1946. My bad, as they say. And it has the flat sided hammer along with the hammer block safety. Pretty sure that makes it a "Transition" model Heavy Duty.

Thanks for all the help and my apologies to Lloyd for somewhat hi-jacking his thread. Lloyd I hope you like and enjoy your HD as much as I do.

Dave