Help with proper I.D. ***Letter Received***

goatsnguns · #1 08-23-2017, 12:06 AM

I am looking at a round butt, 5 screw, 6 shot I frame with strain screw, and a 2" barrel. The left side of the barrel is marked: "Smith & Wesson" and right under that "32 long ctg" and has a half moon front sight. The serial # is 519781. There is a large S&W logo on the side plate and a 4 line address on the frame. It has a flush ejector rod (not mushroom or barrel type) and matching numbered service stocks with gold medallions. It is being called a "pre Mod 30", but after perusing the SCSW 4th ed, nothing seems to jive, by the serial number it should be a 32 HE 3rd Model. The pictures of this gun do not show the cylinder open and it may be a 5 shot, which is a guess on my part. There are no rework stamps on the left grip frame.

I usually don't have so much trouble figuring these things out, but this is a head scratcher. Is this possibly a Transition gun?

Thanks for the help.

two-bit cowboy · #2 08-23-2017, 12:44 AM

Howdy g 'n' g:

I believe you're looking at a prewar .32 HE, yes, Third Model.

It's easy to distinguish 5 from 6-shot by looking at the flutes on the cylinder. If you see three on one side and the middle one is centered it's a 6-shot (as pictured). If you can only see two, and they're offset it's a 5-shot.

Here's my 515527 .32 HE, which I've guessed to be from '39.

Added: got to thinking about your post... 2"? Wow, I'd have the seller verify the serial on the bottom of the barrel matches the butt. That's sort of an oddball for a prewar. 4-line address? No barrel knob? Big logo on the side plate? I see why you're confused.

Hope this helps.

Slàinte,

Bob

Hondo44 · #3 08-23-2017, 05:00 AM

Whoa, you have found an extremely interesting puzzle! Let's solve it.

Pre war features:

519781: #s near this generally shipped in the mid 1930s. But there's exceptions galore after the Black Thurs Market Crash 10/29/29. Guns languished in inventory for years and the longer they sat, the more the serial # shipping dates got out of chronology even after WW II in extreme cases. So a very confusing time to estimate dates.

Large logo on sideplate began 1936 all models, however too many sideplates on I frames were bending or otherwise unsatisfactory during the large logo roll marking procedure. Therefore by post war, the small logo had returned.

Gold medallions: recessed gold medallions were reinstated in wood stocks but with ‘convex’ stock circles on 2/11/1929; 3/18/29 changed to flush mounted, flat gold plated, and then finally changed April 1929 to flush mounted, flat chrome plated over brass thru WW II. So these are truly rare. They would make the gun a 1929 production, therefore the right stock should be stamped with s/n, not penciled.
Caveat: the 1936 Large logo sideplate contradicts a 1929 production date, but this may or may not be an issue; see "Conclusion" below.

Post war features:

2" barrel: Introduced 1949, on the .32.
Two line barrel marking one side is the more common.
Straight extractor rod was only used after the war on this model. Probably left hand thread already.
4 line address

Other:

Pre model 30: the meaning is very misunderstood. Only Model of 1953 I & J frames can be pre models because anything earlier is not the same eng design as those model stamped. But at least it confirms it's a 6 shot:
cyl flutes align between the notches, see Bob's above;
5 shot, flutes align with the notches.

No rework star or dates.

Questions:

Are the gold medallions flat or recessed?
Is the serial # on back of right stock penciled or stamped?
Does it have the post war sliding bar safety visible in the hammer channel and is the hammer face notched under the firing pin?

Conclusion:

It's an old pre war piece from inventory that was retrofitted with a post war sliding bar safety to meet the then current requirements which requires milling the sideplate. A later or different sideplate (i.e. with large logo) may have been refitted after milling; in this case the assembly # back of sideplate may be overstamped to match the frame and the yoke - should be checked.

Then refitted with newly introduced 2" barrel that was gaining popularity at the time and to improve sales. Lastly stamped with 4 line address according to PW protocol and re-blued. However since it had never been sold nor left the factory, it would not be stamped with star or rework date. There may be an O or <> after # on the barrel. And serial # on barrel should match gun.

Sold and shipped after the war in the late '40s - early '50s and a few have lettered accordingly.

So it can be a very righteous gun (unless contrary info is forth coming). And very scarce.

Officially it's just a ".32 Hand Ejector". Collector specific jargon is "Post War Transitional Model .32 HE ".

However these unique and scarce pre war factory refurbished versions justify a more specific collector term:
"Pre War/Post War Transitional Model .32 HE".

I would not pass up this gun if at all possible and all the above details jive with the features of the gun!!

Even if you can't confirm all details before buying, it's a desirable enough Transitional model to buy and examine the details after you get it, if the price isn't too bad and it's not a complete dog.

Good luck and please let us know the outcome.

two-bit cowboy · #4 08-23-2017, 12:11 PM

Wow, Jim. What an education. You should write a book!

Bob

goatsnguns · #5 08-23-2017, 12:27 PM

Jim,

Thank you so much for all the great information. My head is still spinning!

The medallions seem to be flat and flush with the surface of the grips and the s/n is stamped into the wood.

I can not see the hammer block in the pictures.

I will have to go and see if the barrel s/n matches just to be sure when I get a chance. I have "not so good" pictures from the seller and haven't yet seen the gun in person.

Thanks again for the education.

Gary

Hondo44 · #6 08-23-2017, 02:25 PM

Gary and Bob,

Glad to try and help. The weird ones can be fun to try to figure out.

Most of the chapters for a book are written. I can email you any sections you might be interested in.

I heard too many stories about guys passing good deals on guns they thought were monkeyed with only to find out they were righteous scarce or rare guns. So I thought I'd better bone up.

goatsnguns · #7 08-29-2017, 09:04 PM

Got the gun today and have some pictures.

The information in my original post is correct with the exception of the stock medallions, they are flat but are silver over brass as far as I can tell. The right stock is darker and worn more than the left.

The assembly numbers on the frame, yoke, and side plate are all matching, 51906. The hammer block is in the side plate and is activated by the ramp on the hand.

It has a smooth trigger with "reg us pat off" on the back, the hammer is not so marked.

There are no rework dates or any rework marks on the frame or barrel. I've studied it with a 10X loupe and the blueing looks original to me.

The serial number 519781 matches on the butt, barrel, yoke, cylinder, and the back side of the ejector star. The last digit (1) on the back of the cylinder was punched very deep and is hard to read

I have two questions, is this gun worth lettering and would it be worthwhile to send the stocks to DWFAN for his magic touch?

goatsnguns · #8 08-29-2017, 09:06 PM

More pictures.

goatsnguns · #9 08-29-2017, 09:08 PM

Last two pictures.

I just now noticed the the trigger rebound stud and the hammer stud are flat on the left side of the frame, which indicates a re-finish, but the rest of the gun looks original??????

g-dad · #10 08-29-2017, 09:16 PM

What a great looking gun. You have to decide on the lettering. Post it in the ship date thread for Mr. Jinks. If he gives you "it's an interesting gun" when he give you the ship date, you bet you get it lettered! lol

Paul did a fantastic job on my 1905 stocks. They look new and I was glad I did it.

Don't know if any of this helps but there it is.

goatsnguns · #11 08-29-2017, 09:36 PM

Dan,

Thanks, I will get a ship date as soon as possible.

Paul has done a couple of sets of stocks for me as well, they come back looking like the day they left the factory.

Hondo44 · #12 08-29-2017, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goatsnguns

Got the gun today and have some pictures.

The information in my original post is correct with the exception of the stock medallions, they are flat but are silver over brass as far as I can tell. The right stock is darker and worn more than the left.

The assembly numbers on the frame, yoke, and side plate are all matching, 51906. The hammer block is in the side plate and is activated by the ramp on the hand.

It has a smooth trigger with "reg us pat off" on the back, the hammer is not so marked.

There are no rework dates or any rework marks on the frame or barrel. I've studied it with a 10X loupe and the blueing looks original to me.

The serial number 519781 matches on the butt, barrel, yoke, cylinder, and the back side of the ejector star. The last digit (1) on the back of the cylinder was punched very deep and is hard to read

I have two questions, is this gun worth lettering and would it be worthwhile to send the stocks to DWFAN for his magic touch?

That's a nice one!! Yes have Paul work his magic on the stocks!

Everything I see confirms my original assesment:

1. The serial on the butt reads with muzzle to the right, so it was stamped pre war.

2. The large logo and the matching assembly # on sideplate indicates post 1936 but pre war production.

3. The 2nd style pre war side plate mounted hammer block to me indicates the gun was far enough thru production when pulled from old inventory (likely unfinished) that it was deemed acceptable and therefore not retrofitted with the post war sliding bar safety.

4. The finish is clearly factory original and post war protocol when they no longer domed the frame pins, instead polished them flat on all new guns and re-finished guns. As is the 4 line address. W/O a rework date on left side grip frame, it was not refinished after shipping new from the factory.

5. Thumb piece is the pre war double pinch "relieved back" style.

6. The stocks are clearly pre war stocks (also used post war until depleted), with sharp cornered bordering on checkering field and with flat flush silver or gold medallions.
Stocks are the only puzzling part for two reasons:

They are so worn in comparison to the gun's finish. Have you confirmed the matching serial # stamped on back of right side?

Also the left side medallion does look gold unless it's wood stain and the right side shows the same in the grooves. If it comes off with lacquer thinner it's stain. If it doesn't it's gold plated (hope for gold!). And the right side merely has most of the gold worn off since the wear on that side is substantially worse than the left stock.

Hope that helps,

goatsnguns · #13 08-29-2017, 11:02 PM

Jim,

That is great news, thanks for making my day.

The stocks were not covered with varnish, I did try acetone.

To me they appear to be brass that is silver plated. The plating has worn off on the left stock not so much on the right, which is just the opposite you would think according to the ware of the wood.

Also I noticed a difference in the upper bevel cut between the stocks. is that normal?

Thanks again for sharing your expertise.

goatsnguns · #14 08-29-2017, 11:03 PM

One more picture.

Hondo44 · #15 08-30-2017, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goatsnguns

Jim,

That is great news, thanks for making my day.

The stocks were not covered with varnish, I did try acetone.

To me they appear to be brass that is silver plated. The plating has worn off on the left stock not so much on the right, which is just the opposite you would think according to the ware of the wood.

Also I noticed a difference in the upper bevel cut between the stocks. is that normal?

Thanks again for sharing your expertise.

If the meds were silver worn thru to brass, they would be brass (yellow) on the high spots and silver in the depressions but they are just the opposite.

The 'silver' pre war medallions are not silver, actually chromed over brass. The 1929 version of gold is plated over the chrome.

What I see on both the left and right meds is gold worn off the high spots (more on the right) with the chrome showing thru.

NOTE: The old recessed gold meds from 1910 to 1920 are gold plated over brass. Post war meds are nickel plated over brass.

The upper border bevel being more pronounced on one side is normal. During that period they were made, I see that often, always the same side. Some rookie didn't know how to adjust the stock checkering machine.

Did you confirm the right stock # matches the gun?

goatsnguns · #16 08-30-2017, 12:40 AM

Jim,

Thanks, Yes the stocks are serial numbered to the gun, 519781.
I guess the next step is to get a shipping date.

Hondo44 · #17 08-30-2017, 02:38 AM

Cool! Oh sorry, just noticed you posted pic of s/n on grip.

It'll very likely be from between 1946 and maybe as late as 1950. Can't wait to hear actual date.

How does it feel to have a model not even mentioned in the books? I alluded to it in #1. Trans. Pre War/Post War on pg 145 of the SCSW 4th edition. But honestly didn't have a full understanding of them when I wrote it.

That's truly a great and scarce find! Kinda' like a 1970 GTO with the rare factory exhaust cut outs! :-)

DCWilson · #18 08-30-2017, 05:08 AM

How did it take me a week to find this thread? This is the kind of thing that wakes up my tired brain.

I don't think the four-line dies even existed before 1948, so that's your earliest date for this specimen right there. A few prewar frames were built out and shipped in the late 1940s. Some .32 I-frames with nearby 521xxx serial numbers are known to have been made up for the NYPD and issued to women officers about 1949. Two-inch guns are among them, but I don't know that all the police women revolvers had short barrels. I am guessing they would all have had four-line address blocks.

The thing to remember about postwar I-frame production is that there was very little of it until 1950. From late 1945 through 1949 the company was heavily focused on K and N frame revolvers as it tried to fill the large-frame demand backlog and build a market for its new K-frame Masterpiece series at the same time it was producing tens of thousands of new K-frame M&P revolvers. During the 1930s, I-frame production had collapsed nearly 80 percent, to judge from serial number ranges, so S&W had no reason to think there was a major market for anything other than the larger frame revolvers after they wrapped up their WWII production contracts.

That doesn't mean there were no I-frame shipments in the late '40s, but only that there was no early commitment to resumption of large-scale production. Between a few hundred and a few thousand I-frame revolvers were assembled from prewar parts and shipped in this period, and perhaps a small I-frame operation was allowed to produce a few units from scratch alongside the more sought-after K and N frames. But we really don't see anything like significant production and shipment of postwar I-frames like the .22/32 Kit Gun, the .38 Regulation Police and the .38/32 Terrier until the 1950-52 time frame. After sales of those models revealed a fairly strong market for small frame revolvers, the Model of 1953 I-frames were introduced and it was off to the races.

I'm thinking that prewar frame 519781 was probably built out and shipped in 1948-49, but the possibility remains that it might not have left Springfield until the 1950-52 period.

So far as I know, no two-inch .32 HE revolvers were manufactured before WWII, though there is always the possibility of special orders or the creation of concept guns that were produced for evaluation before they were ordered to production. Two inch I-frame barrel blanks should have been available before, during and immediately after WWII because they were used in the .38/32 Terriers.

This is a terrific find. If I had found it on the used and consignment shelf at my LGS, I would have bought it on the spot without any haggling over price. I would also letter it to see if it went anywhere interesting.

I must again thank Professor Hondo for sharing his I-frame knowledge. I have learned more about these guns from him than from any other source.

goatsnguns · #19 08-30-2017, 12:02 PM

David

Thank you so much for the background information and sharing it.

I am filling out the letter request today and am wondering if I should include some photos.

Thanks Again.

handejector · #20 08-30-2017, 12:15 PM

I'll be the wet blanket-

It might just be a Pre-War gun that was refinished and had a barrel replaced by the Factory.
All refinished/reworked guns are not marked.

goatsnguns · #21 08-30-2017, 01:00 PM

Thanks Lee,

Always good to have a dose of reality.

DCWilson · #22 08-30-2017, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

I'll be the wet blanket-

It might just be a Pre-War gun that was refinished and had a barrel replaced by the Factory.
All refinished/reworked guns are not marked.

Always a possibility. The letter will be instructive.

I feel that I am often the guy who puts bitter coatings on sugar pills. Interesting to be on the other side for a change.

Hondo44 · #23 08-30-2017, 03:58 PM

Yes, always a remote possibility and relative to the time period the work may have been done.

Before stamped Model # guns (pre 1957) have not been accepted by the factory for rework/refinish for some time now. And the period when the factory was stamping pre war frames with the 4 line address was in the early 1970s when Roy Jinks put a stop to it.

And in the early 1970s, although the rework star on the butt was usually no longer used, we can still observe rework dates stamped and markings on the barrel if replaced. However as we know, at S&W there are no hard and fast rules, just trends, so anything is possible. But it would be a bright blue not a satin blue if re-finished in the '70s. And if done in the early '50s when the satin was standard, it would almost certainly be date stamped in that era.

The letter will be decisive one way or the other based on the shipping date. If the letter indicates a pre war shipping date, it's conclusive that it isn't a Pre/Post war Trans., as I think it is.

And definitely include as many good photos as you have posted above. They clearly show key features (clues) to the gun's pedigree. And specifically ask if Roy thinks the gun is from old pre war inventory, refurbished and sold after the war.

goatsnguns · #24 08-30-2017, 10:19 PM

Jim,

Here are two pictures of the hammer in the cocked position, as you requested.

Hondo44 · #25 08-31-2017, 04:34 AM

The reason I asked for the photos of the hammer is to look for that notch in the hammer face under the firing pin.

That indicates a retrofit to the post war sliding bar hammer safety block.

To me, the notched hammer indicates a retrofitted post war sliding bar hammer block. Something we see on pre war/post war transitionals before they are sold and shipped, and further supports yours as being that model.

S&WsRsweet · #26 08-31-2017, 07:23 AM

Man this is a very interesting and informative thread thanks to goatsnguns for starting and following up .Thanks to the experts for information shareing this helps many of us .i hope this gun turns out to be a very rare model like Hondo44 is talking about this kind of thing gives me hope and keeps me looking that I will run across a rare one someday .

goatsnguns · #27 08-31-2017, 10:21 AM

I am wondering if the hammer spur was broken in the past and replaced with a later hammer. I noticed right away that there was no "reg us pat" on the back of the hammer, as with my other early 32's.

DCWilson · #28 08-31-2017, 11:45 AM

That patent stamp on the hammer disappeared in the late 1930s. Since I suspect that your gun was left as a numbered frame during the 1930s and was not built out until after WWII, a later unmarked hammer could have been used when it was finally assembled. Alternatively, if this was a postwar rebuild of a complete .32HE that shipped years earlier, as Lee suggested, then it would have been simpler just to discard the old unusable hammer rather than recutting it for use with the new sliding hammer safety.

The REG.U.S.PAT.OFF. stamp on hammers and triggers was not related to a mechanical design, by the way. It was an assertion of protection for the distinctive pattern and coloration that resulted from the company's case hardening process.

Have you looked yet at the inner surface of the sideplate to see if it has the same soft-fitting number as the frame and yoke? If it is the same with no signs of overstamping or an erasure and secondary stamping, it is probably the original sideplate. The presence of the large logo there in addition to the small logo on the left side of the frame suggests that the large logo was added in the postwar assembly process that added the groove for the sliding hammer safety. But as Jim noted above, it is also possible that a new postwar sideplate was used rather than tinkering with the original one. [CORRECTION: The OP's revolver has no small logo. See posts below.]

A lot will become clearer once we know the actual shipping date for this revolver. If it is 1931, that tells one story. If it is 1951 or thereabouts, that would tell another. In between -- 1941, say -- we might still be left scratching our heads about features like the large sideplate logo.

By the way, the order to replace the small left-side logo with the large sideplate logo was issued in late 1936. The first guns reflecting that order were being shipped in early 1937. Because frames and sideplates could be made at different times, there were a few guns manufactured in the late 1930s that have logos in both positions. I have a couple of prewar kit guns that have dual logos. But generally a gun will have one logo or the other.

goatsnguns · #29 08-31-2017, 12:29 PM

David,

Thanks again for your expertise.

The soft fitting numbers on the frame, yoke, and side plate all match with no evidence of overstamping, 51906. Good to know about the "reg us pat off" stamps. There is no small logo on the left side.

Hopefully I will be able to get a ship date request in on Sunday, If I don't sleep in.

I always learn something when you or Jim post a reply.

DCWilson · #30 08-31-2017, 12:41 PM

Sorry about the small logo goof. I looked at the wrong picture and with my tunnel vision didn't even see that it had a longer barrel and could not have been your gun.

goatsnguns · #31 08-31-2017, 01:08 PM

David,

I do the same thing all the time. Good to know I am not alone.

handejector · #32 09-02-2017, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

I'll be the wet blanket-

It might just be a Pre-War gun that was refinished and had a barrel replaced by the Factory.
All refinished/reworked guns are not marked.

I'm always amused by these "I've found a unicorn!" threads.

No offense intended- I've hunted unicorns all my life. I've found a few. I've had many others wind up with a slit throat from Occam's razor.

Let's examine the obvious-
1> The grips are numbered to the gun, so we know they are original. However, they are very worn, yet the blue finish is in high condition. So, do you really think the grips got worn almost smooth from carry and the blue won't show comparable wear?

2> Flat studs? Show me another gun with a recessed hammer stud that is buffed flat on an ORIGINAL finished gun.

3> Hammer block in the sideplate with a hammer notched for a slider..........
To me, that means the hammer was replaced when they reblued/rebarreled/re-rollmarked the gun in the 1970s. They used the wrong hammer either by mistake, or that was all they had because Bill Orr had already bought all the surplus parts.

4> Bright blue only for guns reblued in the 70s??? NOT so!
I've seen many guns with a less than bright finish that had the added 4 line address. It usually does NOT match the satin finish of the late 40s and 50s.

5> Show us the number on the back of the cylinder. I bet it is a different font from the barrel number. The barrels and cylinders were numbered by the same person with the same punches. A different font almost surely means a barrel numbered later when the gun was rebuilt.

Conclusion-

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

I'll be the wet blanket-

It might just be a Pre-War gun that was refinished and had a barrel replaced by the Factory.
All refinished/reworked guns are not marked.

goatsnguns · #33 09-02-2017, 10:55 PM

Lee,

I don't think you are being a wet blanket, you are taking a logical look at all the possibilities.

I'll pull the cylinder tomorrow and post a picture or two of the s/n on the back.

Thanks for your input, it's appreciated.

Tyrod · #34 09-03-2017, 03:14 AM

This is a very interesting thread. I enjoy the sleuthing required to solve the mystery of this gun. Suppose the solution leads to the conclusion that this oddity was built from a mishmash of parts from 2 different eras then sold "new" by the factory. Outside of a few very knowledgeable folks on this forum does this actually add value to this gun? If I saw this gun for sale somewhere even if it came with a "letter" and a printout of this thread, I don't believe I'd pay more for all the provenance this gun has. Would anyone?

Hondo44 · #35 09-03-2017, 06:25 AM

Tyrod,

A very valid question!

Does a double stamped date on a coin add value? Not if you just need a quarter for a phone call. But collectors pay thousands and more. Maybe not an exact analogy but a similar concept.

So you're right, most would not pay more for a unicorn gun even if they recognized it as a unicorn. But as Lee said, he looks for unicorns and many collectors do. It can be a unique addition to a collection if that's one's cup of tea. The cherry on top and what collectors hope, is to find a unicorn at say a Cabela's priced as a routine model.

But if we find a unicorn or seek out one, and the owner knows it's a unicorn, yes that will add value for some wanting a unicorn if it fills a hole in their collection or enhances the uniqueness of the collection, or if they only collect unicorns, etc. Collecting strategies are probably as varied as the models collected.

Some like black horses and some like bays.

goatsnguns · #36 09-03-2017, 11:25 AM

Tyrod,

Your point is valid, there are only a small number of people who would know what this gun could possibly be.

My interests lie in 5 screws and when I saw this 2" .32, I thought it was somewhat scarce and would be nice to have.

No matter what it turns out to be, the real value to me is the interaction with Forum members and the knowledge that I have gleaned from the dialog pertaining to this little conundrum.

Thanks to all,

two-bit cowboy · #37 09-03-2017, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrod

... I don't believe I'd pay more for all the provenance this gun has. Would anyone?

I would, but only up to a point. I was recently asked to make an offer on a 1987 revolver with "0000" as the four digits of the sn. A unicorn? No, but interesting. I passed on making an offer because it seemed the seller thought it was something really special. I didn't, and I feared my offer might be perceived as a low-ball and therefore, insulting. That's not my style.

goatsnguns little 5-screw .32, on the other hand, yes, I'd likely go the distance on it or something similar. I'm that guy HONDO44 described as looking for the oddballs to fill holes in the accumulation (or collection). I try to pick them as reasonably as possible, but if it's truly an oddball among the models I focus on I'm a player.

Slàinte,

Bob

Tyrod · #38 09-03-2017, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Tyrod,

A very valid question!

Does a double stamped date on a coin add value? Not if you just need a quarter for a phone call. But collectors pay thousands and more. Maybe not an exact analogy but a similar concept.

So you're right, most would not pay more for a unicorn gun even if they recognized it as a unicorn. But as Lee said, he looks for unicorns and many collectors do. It can be a unique addition to a collection if that's one's cup of tea. The cherry on top and what collectors hope, is to find a unicorn at say a Cabela's priced as a routine model.

But if we find a unicorn or seek out one, and the owner knows it's a unicorn, yes that will add value for some wanting a unicorn if it fills a hole in their collection or enhances the uniqueness of the collection, or if they only collect unicorns, etc. Collecting strategies are probably as varied as the models collected.

Some like black horses and some like bays.

Ok, I get it. I prefer sorrels myself. I once had one. A yearling registered Quarterhorse. I bought him at the Ocala auction. Star, stripe and snip and one white foot. Gorgeous stallion. Pedigree out the yin yang. I couldn't break that horse to save my life. So, on the advice of my farrier I had him fixed. Unfortunately, the fixing didn't solve the problem of riding him. I even hired a guy to break him. That didn't work either. So, after a few month of contemplation, after he was good and barn sour, I traded him and money for a proven working cutting horse. That relationship worked out well. The sorrel was eventually broken and was seen in the movie GLORY.

goatsnguns · #39 09-04-2017, 06:02 PM

Sorry it took so long to get these pictures posted, a bit of a hectic day yesterday.

Here are additional pictures.

goatsnguns · #40 09-04-2017, 06:04 PM

Three more pictures.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks

DCWilson · #41 09-04-2017, 06:30 PM

Postwar hammer, but prewar hammer safety block driven by the rise of the hand. Not that you would necessarily want to, but you could drop a prewar hammer in this and the safety block and hammer would function fine (assuming thick grime hadn't led to the safety block being locked back inside its groove in the sideplate).

The flattened hammer stud and trigger return spring stud ends confirm that it has been refinished.

It seems likelier to me now that this is a prewar gun that was returned for a makeover in 1948 or later. But I will wait for the shipment date before I express that opinion without reservation.

Hondo44 · #42 09-04-2017, 08:41 PM

I was hoping it had a sliding bar safety, produced after the war, and also refinished. But no, 2nd style side plate safety hammer block. I believe it must still work with the new notched hammer or S&W wouldn't let it out of the shop.
I now think Lee is right; pre war shipped.

goatsnguns · #43 09-04-2017, 09:40 PM

Dave & Jim,

We will see, I was able to get a ship date request posted today.

Hopefully that will answer some of the questions.

I Still have to send in the letter request, which I will do tomorrow.

handejector · #44 09-05-2017, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

5> Show us the number on the back of the cylinder. I bet it is a different font from the barrel number. The barrels and cylinders were numbered by the same person with the same punches. A different font almost surely means a barrel numbered later when the gun was rebuilt.

Gary-
The cyl number provides the answer.
Look at Pic # 42 below. The lady is numbering barrels and cylinders (and yokes and extractors) with the same stamps at the same time, so they should match in font.

Note that your cylinder has the old font with serifs, as it should.
Note that the barrel number is a more modern font without serifs. The barrel and hammer were replaced on this Pre-War gun and it was refinished.

So folks, always remember that BIG mysteries can often be solved by observing little clues before the wild speculation begins.

To paraphrase Billy Occam's razor-
"The simplest explanation is usually the correct one."

I'd get the ship date you've requested, but keep my $65 letter fee unless Roy says it is an interesting gun!

Hondo44 · #45 09-05-2017, 06:10 PM

Lee,

Yes the change in fonts is always a good "little" clue, but didn't solve any mystery in this case.

We never doubted the barrel was changed after the war, it wasn't available until after the war (above). So the only mystery was whether the gun was a factory rebuild after the war before sale (including a barrel update), or a barrel change as part of a rework on a return to factory for a re-finish.

But you already solved it by correctly figuring it had a hammer change to a post war hammer but not for an update to the sliding bar hammer block.

I surmised it might be both a rebuild and a later rework because of the condition of the stocks vs. such a nice blue finish. But my shot at Ocam's 20% did me in.....again. Always go for the 80% and know all the facts first. It's a good thing I don't mind crow all that much, since I've had a lot of it over all the years, especially lately.....

Thanks for that photo. It appears the woman is stamping the serial # digits individually. I always wondered about that, they're awfully straight most times for those tiny size digits. But I guess one can get pretty good at it 8 hrs a day or 20 years or whatever.

goatsnguns · #46 09-05-2017, 11:21 PM

Lee,

Thanks for the photos, I can see that there is only one set of stamps in the block in front of her work area, proving that all the stampings should should be of the same font. Mine clearly are not.

Boy, I feel like I have received a college education in just the last few days.... a "BS in S&Wology".

I sure want to thank you for taking the time to share and pass along your knowledge pertaining the this little revolver. This information has made the gun very special to me and it will always be a reminder of the great people here on the Forum.

Jim,

Thanks to you for all of your encouragement, help, and suggestions, you kept the thread alive and interesting and I think we all learned a thing or two. It is members such as yourself that make this the best Forum on the internet!

Best Regards,

DCWilson · #47 09-06-2017, 10:36 AM

Gary, if you haven't seen it yet go to the SWCA section of the forum and get your shipping date answer. It will put a big smile on your face.

H Richard · #48 09-06-2017, 10:40 AM

A very enjoyable thread, exploring the heritage of a particular gun. Especially since it is a 32 HE stub nose, my favorite pistol. You can learn so much on one of these threads, just wish I could remember it all. Be sure and post the letter when you receive it.

goatsnguns · #49 09-06-2017, 11:35 AM

This gun was shipped in March of 1949 per Roy with no comment of it being an "interesting gun".

I am very happy with this information, if could have been shipped in my birth year, 1946, that would have been icing on the cake.

I am still wondering if I should send in the letter request as I was waiting to see if Roy had a comment.....hmmm...what to do, what to do.

Thanks to all who participated in this thread.

Hondo44 · #50 09-06-2017, 01:23 PM

Whadaya know, it was shipped post war! Maybe I won't have to eat crow after all.

When you request the shipping date, all you usually get is just month and year, not even the day of shipment.
If you look at his responses to the other members, Roy very seldom makes any other comments, and usually only about the serial # if there's an anomaly.

When you get the letter, you'll get the full date and much more info, like original barrel length that it shipped with. Plus he'll have your photos to look at and will answer your specific questions like why it doesn't have the sliding bar safety and if it is a pre war gun completed or re-done before the post war sale in 1949?

Also once you have the letter that's a requirement for your request to the SWHF for any correspondence like for a refinish on your gun. They've digitized archives up to 1964 now, so if it was refinished before then they might have something. If they don't, there's no charge.