.38 target *much better photos added* and a bonus

M_conrad_0311 · #1 09-07-2017, 06:49 PM

Going to look at this tomorrow. Says that SN is 16xxx. Is this a 1905 target? I am sorry for the poor picture, it is all he could send me. States it is original finish, but front sight looks like it might have been changed. If it is original finish what would be a fair value?
***************************************************************************************************************************
**I purchased this revolver as a shooter. I am sure it has been refinished, though not too poorly. The biggest problem with it is that some PO ground the rear of the grip frame. Who knows why. There has been a taller sight blade placed in the rear adjustment. And the very weird front sight. The hammer has been contoured , a trigger stop added and the sides of both (trigger and hammer) have been sanded down to raw metal. The action of this revolver is fantastic. **

New Photos in Post 21

Wiregrassguy · #2 09-07-2017, 06:54 PM

Matthew the front sight looks like a Colt. I'd pass

Guy

DWalt · #3 09-07-2017, 06:55 PM

Your picture is not good enough to tell much, other than it appears to be a target model M&P or K-38. At least two good profiles, one each side, are needed, even more would be better. The SN WILL NOT be 16xxx. Use the number stamped on the butt, including any letter prefix (such as a K).

M_conrad_0311 · #4 09-07-2017, 07:03 PM

This is the other side, looks like a refinish from this photo

ParadiseRoad · #5 09-07-2017, 07:21 PM

...appears to have a LERK rather than a MERK...that wouldn't correspond well with that serial number...hard to see but it almost appears to have a one line address which wouldn't correspond to that serial number either...might be a homemade target conversion...or maybe it's a returned to the factory target conversion which would be about the only way that one line address would appear with that serial number...

mikepriwer · #6 09-07-2017, 07:28 PM

The rear sight looks high enough to be a post-WW2 sight, but only target revolvers without a rib would be the Mexican Model, which this is not. The hammer and trigger looks to be sanded to white, maybe meaning the gun has been refinished. Without the serial number, I'm not sure of the vintage. If its a pre-WW2 gun with a post-WW2 sight, then maybe it was an M&P and someone mounted an adjustable sight leaf on it.

The pictures are not really sufficient, without the serial number, to guess what this is.

Mike Priwer

M_conrad_0311 · #7 09-07-2017, 07:45 PM

I will get clarification on SN. Seller has several more old S&Ws, so I am going to swing by and check them out.

M_conrad_0311 · #8 09-07-2017, 08:27 PM

SN is 609,788.

Jim Watson · #9 09-07-2017, 08:33 PM

Going only from the low resolution picture, the hammer spur looks to have been reshaped.

paplinker · #10 09-07-2017, 09:41 PM

Definitely a prewar gun. Might have a King hammer. Check the side of the hammer for king cockeyed hammer writing. The front sight was changed i believe and a taller rear sight blade put in. Looks a bit customized but might have great potential if done well.

Best i can come up with your pic. Good luck and don't write it off too quick

murphydog · #11 09-07-2017, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M_conrad_0311

SN is 609,788.

I have seen a very close SN to this one, that lettered to 7/1929. Please let us know how it looks in person?

rct269 · #12 09-07-2017, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M_conrad_0311

SN is 609,788.

#594451 shipped March 8, 1929.

#640816 shipped February 8, 1932.

Ralph Tremaine

And for those of you who are into making something of serial numbers---and totally unrelated stories, #640816 is 24 numbers away from, and identical in configuration to the one McGivern set the record with in 1933. I know this because the seller knew it, thought it was a big deal, and was charging extra for it. The gun is as new---so I paid it.

The better story comes from when Jerry Miculek was under fire for his record (better than McGivern's) because Miculek used a much more modern gun. He allowed as how he'd be glad to have a go at McGivern's record with a comparable gun------if someone would LOAN him the gun. Mr. Jinks got on board with that effort---and put out the word for a donor gun. I thought about helping Jerry with his quest to become more famous than he already is. I didn't think about it for very long---but I thought about it. I never heard anything about Miculek beating McGivern with a comparable gun, so I guess some other folks thought about it for not very long too.

DWalt · #13 09-07-2017, 11:35 PM

609788 would date its probable shipment to be sometime in 1930. So it is definitely not a Mexican Model. Stocks are not original, probably a target model M&P. Better pictures would help.

rwsmith · #14 09-08-2017, 12:01 AM

Some people are doing a great job pinning this down in spite of the quality of the pictures. I can only tell that it's a gun.

S&WsRsweet · #15 09-08-2017, 06:39 AM

The Jerry Miculek story is kind cool if anyone could break the McGivern record I would think it would be him.

Jebus35745 · #16 09-08-2017, 09:03 AM

So did you buy it? Looks like a nice shooter for the right price. Make sure the timing is correct. Larry

Jim Watson · #17 09-08-2017, 09:51 AM

From what I read on Miculek vs McGivern, the big difference is not the guns but the timers. A lot of difference between McGivern's electro-mechanical timers and modern digital shot timers. I understand that a proposal to take McGivern's timer off the museum shelf for Miculek to try was disapproved.

M_conrad_0311 · #18 09-08-2017, 10:07 AM

Jebus35745

Going by this evening after he finishes working.

H Richard · #19 09-08-2017, 10:45 AM

We would all be interested in several photo's that are "clear", and maybe larger. I also think it may be a re-finish.

mikepriwer · #20 09-08-2017, 12:12 PM

Ralph, et al

Regarding the story about Jerry Miculek, Roy contacted me, and I loaned Jerry two 1905 targets from that serial number range. He kept them for 5 years. I assume he did some shooting with them, but I don't know that for a fact. Finally, I called him, asking that if/when he was done with them, I wanted them back. He sent them back, so I guess he was done with them.

There was an issue with the timer, and you have the story correct. I think it was the NRA museum that did not want to loan out their timer. I think McGivern had two timers, but I'm not sure where the other one is.

Regarding the 2nd record-setting 1905, which is the gun you refer to, McGivern used that gun for less than 5 years, and maybe only for about 2 or 3 years. It only set one of the records - his earlier gun set all the significant records, over a period of about 20 years. During his ownership of the 2nd gun, he used both guns. In his book, there are some targets he shot with both guns simultaneously.

Regards, Mike Priwer

M_conrad_0311 · #21 09-08-2017, 09:37 PM

Added pictures

M_conrad_0311 · #22 09-08-2017, 09:56 PM

I will also need a date on SN 670830.. I kinda got a two-fer special.

This one has wrong grips, but otherwise seems pretty nice.

Targets Guy · #23 09-08-2017, 10:04 PM

s/n 671002 shipped in 8/38.

Nice looking target.

Hondo44 · #24 09-09-2017, 02:10 AM

Two nice acquisitions. Great improvement on the photos.

The 1st gun #609,788 shows an attempt to change it a round butt model, which wasn't produced in that time frame on a target model.

It doesn't look re-finished. The knurling on the hammer spur was checkered over a bit crudely but is coarser and a vast improvement over the original.

A good photo of the left side of grip frame with the grip off might tell us if it's been back to S&W for any work.

The 2nd gun #670830 looks all original including the finish.

M_conrad_0311 · #25 09-09-2017, 02:35 AM

Here are both with stocks off.

Hondo44 · #26 09-09-2017, 03:33 AM

Thank you.

I see no dates indicating a return to the factory for any re-work. But the 1st gun with rounded butt has been refinished at some time but is a premium job. Notice the domed pin shown on the 2nd gun in the photo, which is flattened on the 1st gun.

DWalt · #27 09-09-2017, 04:22 AM

SN 670830 would probably have shipped in mid-1938. I have two listed with fairly nearby SNs which did. The hammer on 609788 has been customized and is not original to the revolver.

Jim Watson · #28 09-09-2017, 05:53 AM

Notice the little trigger stop on the conversion.
A good deal of work in that gun.

M_conrad_0311 · #29 09-09-2017, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Thank you.

I see no dates indicating a return to the factory for any re-work. But the 1st gun with rounded butt has been refinished at some time but is a premium job. Notice the domed pin shown on the 2nd gun in the photo, which is flattened on the 1st gun.

I noticed that it looked flat in the photo too Jim, but after inspection, it is the same as the other. I think it is the angle and light that make it look flat in the previous photo.

Hondo44 · #30 09-09-2017, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M_conrad_0311

I noticed that it looked flat in the photo too Jim, but after inspection, it is the same as the other. I think it is the angle and light that make it look flat in the previous photo.

I see what you mean.

Does the finish on both guns have the shine? The first gun looks a little dull.
But again, could be the photos.

S&WsRsweet · #31 09-09-2017, 08:22 AM

Like I always say the only thing better than buying a great revolver is buying two .

Muley Gil · #32 09-09-2017, 08:41 AM

Iffn' you take that first revolver camping, you can open cans with the front sight.

M_conrad_0311 · #33 09-09-2017, 09:33 AM

Would this be a new acronym COFS (can opener front sight) very limited survivalist model.
After taking it out in natural light it is easier to see that the finish is not as bright as the the original. Reaffirmation to being re-finished.

M_conrad_0311 · #34 09-11-2017, 09:49 PM

Which look better on the can opener round butt target, the round butt quasi custom fit Magnas or a little western look with these victories and grip adaptor? Maybe I should try and find some custom full enclosure target stocks to put on it.

Hondo44 · #35 09-11-2017, 10:37 PM

I always prefer post war early targets, before they were shaped like a 2 x 4. After about 1955, I have to slim down targets to the coke bottle oval style grip rather than the later almost sq grips.

Wiregrassguy · #36 09-12-2017, 05:14 AM

Matthew, is that an original S&W grip adapter? I like that retro look.

M_conrad_0311 · #37 09-12-2017, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy

Matthew, is that an original S&W grip adapter? I like that retro look.

Guy, it is an original S&W gear (not to the gun, just real S&W.)

How did Irma impact you?

Wiregrassguy · #38 09-12-2017, 06:45 AM

Original, huh? It may be a bit too rich for that gun. Needs a registered magnum, IMO.

We got a little wind and rain, but nothing we haven't seen before. Trees down, limbs and debris all around but not extensive and little damage. My heart goes out to South Florida. They've got extensive cleanup work to do.

Jebus35745 · #39 09-12-2017, 07:55 AM

You bought two very nice guns. The modified one looks neat with the taller front sight. Now you need to visit a range and let us know how great they shoot. The pre-war long action very smooth and a joy to shoot double action. Must have been a good price to buy both. Larry

M_conrad_0311 · #40 09-12-2017, 09:29 AM

Guy, I have to admit, I did attempt to put them on my pre-27 to check fit on the N frame, but they do not quite match up. The radius between the grip frame and the trigger gaurd are different enough that this K frame adapter is not quite compatible. I will check with pre war N frame when/if the TL ever shows up, but I suspect like wise results. Strangely, the fit between my M&Ps are all a little different also. Both target m&p's are very tight fitting to the adapter, especially at the front most point where it meets the trigger gaurd. Placed on my commercial finished BSR, they slip right in, but seem slightly long for the grip frame. I haven't tried them on my K22.

I too, feel for those effected in FLA and pray a speedy recovery.

Larry, I am planning a trip to the range later in the week, or on the weekend. I am excited to give the customized one a whirl. I was able to do some trading and a little cash to get them both, but I think it was fair both ways. He did not want to part with the later model, but we finally made a deal.