This is a classic case of a double edged sword. I am watching a model 27 with 3 1/2 inch barrel and Fuzzy Farrant stocks. Mr. Farrant cut the grip frame when he installed a set of his stocks.

He was an armorer for the Los Angeles police department for many years and these were his trademark. Does this hurt the value of the gun or increase the value?

The gun is in Los Angeles and it is obviously his work.

Best,
Charles

Fuzzy Farrant and the 1955 Target....

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Back to back World War Champs.

Nowdays not that many remember who he was, and the younger crowd would have no clue, so any "name value" on his work would probably be negligible.

Unless you're looking at much more of a desirable "name", like Fitz mentioned above, custom work generally doesn't repay the money put into it, on a shooter.

I'd call it a shooter, not a collector piece, and you can decide what it's worth to you.
Definitely don't buy it as an investment.
Denis

In this case, it comes down to the provenance of the gun . Who was the work done for ?
If it was for someone on the LAPD, then that is important to a lot of collectors. If the owner was someone significant, then that is also important to collectors. If nothing is known of the provenance, the gun is probably worth a bit less than one with an uncut frame corner.

As an example, I have a couple of LAPD Chief Ed Davis's K-38's. One of them has the frame corner cut, not by Farrant, but by the LAPD armorer (Walter Stark) who taught Farrant how to do that, and how to make grips. That gun is worth a whole lot more than a standard K-38.

Here is a photo of four members of the LAPD shooting team, including Farrant and Stark.



Regards, Mike Priwer

My Custom Carry 4516-1 ~ The Black Pearl

While the word "Bubba" did come up in the opening responses to the sticky thread on the build of this weapon, which was so well documented by the Master Chief, those comments quickly stopped as his craftsmanship became so obviously apparent

For me the finely crafted weapon is a "Pearl of great price" and therefore of great value to me. At auction it may not carry the provenance and pedigree it would here on this forum.

It's not for sale in any case at any price. It's a treasured possession to be held and used as it was intended.



digiroc

Shoot Well My Friends

How do you view King's work ? To a collector who wants a gun as close to factory specs King's work would be a sacrilege to a collector who admires King's work finding a gun with King modifications it would be a find.
The old adage 'BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER" comes into play.

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SWCA 1932 SWHF 135

Here are some factors from the eyes of a gun molester.

What kind of shape is the gun in when you start. If LNIB or above 95% your probably going to hurt value unless it is a very common model. How common is it and how desirable is that model.

Examples. I picked up a 1917 that didn't have its original barrel and the poor excuse for a barrel it did have was loose. Price $300. Cut down and installed a 1950 45 barrel and added ajustable sights. Modified grip frame and made a set of blood wood grips. Get offers for it on a regular basis. Shooter 629-1 with an 8 3/8 barrel and rubber grips. $500. Reamed to 45 colt and cut for acp and moonclips, installed 4" barrel. Who would buy a dual caliper 4" 45 for say $850. Did almost the same thing to another 629-1 I picked up for I think around $550 only it got a 5" barrel and cylinder only takes 45 colts, not cut for clip. A 10-2 with a cracked forcing cone now has a 2 1/2 model 19 barrel and a recessed model 19 cylinder and is round butted. A ing model 28 becomes a 6" 45 colt. etc etc

But, my 1955 with a reamed 45 colt cylinder lost value. My 455 triple lock was nicely reamed to 45 colt before I got it, and less valuable than if it had been left alone. If I took a nice 27-2 and made it a 45 it would loose value.

Some guys wouldn't buy a converted 629-1 and some want a 45 colt and don't care how it became one.

Hey, I just won a 629-1 with a Leopold mount and red dot for $559 and $40 shipping. I have another 4" 45 barrel I got from Midway for about $89 when they got a couple in stock. Guess what is getting customized, Bubbaized. What ever.

Is a dual 45 with a 4" barrel worth more than $700 if it started as a 44 mag? I bet it is. I already know someone who wants one.

One caveat. Sometimes the cutting of the grip frame would remove the letter prefix of the serial number. If left that way, the result is a defaced serial and consequently a gun not legal to own. Seems like smiths were often casual about that back in the day.

That's not a problem in this particular example. The 'S' prefix on N frames in that time frame wasn't placed as far from the S/N as on K frames.

Mark

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S&W Forum Member #721

I've been watching that gun, and I'm not tempted to bid for a couple reasons. First thing is the seller's assertion that the gun was found in his elderly aunt's garage - and that he's selling it for her. Then today I noticed the high bidder is a non-rated bidder who's been a member of that site for 3 years with no feedback. That smells like a shill bidder to me.

That said, the fact that it has the Farrant modification wouldn't bother me on that gun. The serial number - including the 'S' prefix - remains intact due to the placement of the prefix being adjacent to the S/N.

Mark

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S&W Forum Member #721

I just checked the seller's other items for sale. His story is his elderly aunt found a Model 27-1 w/ Farrant srocks & a Colt 1911a1 wearing pearls in her garage and she doesn't know how they got there. He is listing the guns because she does not have email. But, she will transfer them through a FFL dealer.

Hmmmm.................... Sounds completely legit to me.

Best,
Charles

If the gun can be shown and documents as Farrant's work that will increase the value of the gun. The same if it was Stark who did it. That depends of documentation though.

Anyone familiar with the prices that Farrants stocks go for on the auction sites can attest that a Farrant of Stark modified revolver will bring a premium. More than a NIB Model of 1950? No. But substantially more than another used firearm in similar condition.

If folks don't know who Farrant was than they are not actually collectors or S&W enthusiasts, or they are new to it and don't know yet.

Like a Pope barrel, or a Phil Sharpe rifle or revolver, or Skeeter Skelton, John Bianchi, etc. Ya don't know till you know.

tipoc

Customized guns are indeed a two edged sword....................

A lot of customized guns will bring a premium..... just think about all the guns sent to "Kings" in Calf in the 30s........ for action jobs and sights. For the most part they seem to bring more than used stock guns........

My Dad's 6" .357 Colt New Service went to Kings in 38/39 for an action job and adjustable target sights... is it worth more or less..... who knows... as it is it's already a priceless family heirloom. But pre war Colt .357 were pretty uncommon and one with King sights are probably pretty rare.

My advice customize to your hearts content..... to get the gun you want to carry and shoot......... with a few exceptions I would not advise customizing a gun with the sole intent of trying to increase it's value.

Keep in mind that Fuzzy Farrant grips by themselves have sold in the $400 range on this forum.

Bob

There are a few of us out there who like to collect customized guns. I would say that the value I personally place on a gun has to do first and foremost with the provenance, followed by the quality of the modifications, chased by the desirability of the end product.

Because they are always of top quality, I find King guns to be very desirable. Work done by other quality shops and smiths is also of interest. The value on these is always quite subjective however, and personally I enjoy that. When a gun has no comparables I can set a value for the gun that is what *I* am happy paying, and stick to that. With the rise of the internet more comparables sort of emerge, in that I can be looking at a King modified gun and think of the selling price of other King modified guns, but still, each gun is almost always unique in regard to what has been changed on it.

Real provenance on a gun really does turn a modified gun into something special, even a C-word. For example, one of my favorite guns is this thing:



Which has been pretty extensively modified by King. Between the sight work and the speed holes in the hammer, and the clear action work, it's really be set up for someone to shoot in DA. The reason why starts to become clear if you flip it over:



Fortunately for me the owner of this gun in 1977 decided to write a letter to a guy who might know who Bill Keim was:



and Col. Askins responded:



So as an example of modifications improving the gun (making it one heck of a neat shooter, and showing some fantastic pre-ww2 gunsmithing), and being explained by provenance (this was a shooter for a man who had lost an arm in a heroic fashion), the overall effect is a greatly increased value.

On the other hand, let's take another Colt:





I bought this off of Gunbroker, it came out of a Florida pawn shop. I bid something like 75 bucks on it and won it. Didn't even realize I had done so. The gun was so undesirable that even though I had been a bad gunbroker-er and failed to realize I had won, when I contacted the pawn shops two weeks too late they were only too glad to actually complete the transaction.

The work done to it is interesting, but problematic. As near as I can tell it is shootable, the action is good, but the extractor was installed wrong and precludes me from actually putting bullets into the chambers. I've had kroil in it forever and I can't get it to budge to fix it. Someday I'll repair it.

Is this a valuable gun? No. Not at all. Does it have provenance? Only what a person makes up in their mind. I personally still greatly enjoy this gun because the gun itself *looks* like it has a story. I have fun with that... or at least I have $75 worth of fun with it.

Moving onto actual Smiths for a while, if we are talking "customized" but not modified, this is where we get into talking about incorrect stocks:





Here is a place I really love to be. This gun for example is a Non-Registered Magnum from about 1940 equipped with a fine set of Kearsarge stocks made by Charles Wendell. To my eye such a gun couldn't be much improved over what we are looking at here. As much as I like original, the folk art style beauty in a set of stocks like this really sets the gun off.

To go with another example of a S&W that is very neat being both modified and equipped with Kearsarge:






Here we have what started life as a .22/32 Heavy Frame Target, and sometime later was equipped with the 4" barrel and the King front sight. I added the Kearsarge stocks to complete the package to my liking. It's sort of a 'Virtual' pre war kit gun in that it appears to have all the proper parts for a pre-war Kit gun, but was modified later to actually fit that role. The finish gives us a bit of a clue as to when it might have been done as it is a post-war matte blue. Whatever the case is I love shooting it, and am happy as a clam about this "wrong" gun. What is the value of this one? Completely subjective, if I were to sell it I would have to pick some price and throw it out there to see if it would stick.

That's the thing though, a gun like this? I'm probably never going to sell. How would I replace it?

Speaking of which, lets move onto another customized old S&W:





This one has had some serious stuff done to it:



Here, I have no actual proof of anything. I have only speculation. The thing is that I love the thing, and it speaks for itself. Regardless of who did the work, and for whom it was done, the work is absolutely top notch and fascinating. The idea seems to be that someone in the 1940s wanted a nice concealable gun in a cartridge that could stop a man, but that they could reload lightning quick... so they modernized a Model 3 DA and then refined it as they shot it to try to get it right? (The trigger guard was rounded off some time after the reblue, and I believe the Sanderson stocks were a later addition). It's overall a heck of a neat customized gun.

Value? I know what I paid for it, but that's it. What could I get for it? Who knows. (I must say that I personally harbor a theory that Elmer Keith had at least something to do with this one, and that Herb Bradley was the guy who did the work, as the gun did come out of a pawn hop in Idaho, but I could never confirm that, and likely never will unless someone online recognizes it).

Sometimes guns also prove to be a surprise. Case in point:







I thought King might have done this, but I wasn't sure until I lettered it:



Do I have an actual document that says King modified the sights? No. However, the front and rear sight blades are in fact King, and the gun clearly was in San Francisco. What are the chances that anyone but King did this? The thing is though, if I ever sold it, I wouldn't say it's a "King Modified" gun, I would say that I believe it is a King Modified gun, and give my evidence.

I personally would be happy to believe that evidence if someone sold it to me as such, however if they said it was 100% certainly a King gun I would have to object for two reasons. The first being that there isn't actual documentation supporting that claim, and the second is that it just doesn't matter. This gun is great for what it is, a documented SFPD Police gun that was later modified to have some good sights, almost (but not provably) done at the D.W. King shop. If that's not good enough for the buyer, this is not the gun for them.

And one last surprise customized gun:





When I bought this it was advertised as a King modified Bisley, no mention of the 'Keith No. 5' grip shape. It wasn't a king however, which was clear when I got it. Couple months later the auction house sent me this:



So it was actually a Colt modified gun, in 1920 for an easily searched target shooter?...

What does that do the value?


In the end if you have a customized gun my advice is:

1) Find and document any real information you can on it.
2) Extensively photograph it to look for anything about the gun that might have been modified but no obvious.
3) Clearly separate speculation about who may have worked on the gun from fact, and be entirely clear about that.
4) Enjoy it for what it is. It's "wrong" yes, but wrong can be right, and more importantly it can be incredibly interesting.
5) Don't worry about value, buy it or own it because you love it. Value on so many of these can only really be established in an auction anyway.

Below are two M&P revolvers from the immediate postwar period. They began life in the same configuration (except for the "Speed Hammer") a couple of years apart. The lower gun left the factory and was sent directly to King's in S.F. where it was modified.













tipoc

Another from King's in S.F. but of the other kind. A Colt Officer's Model Match. When I found it the original stocks were long gone. It wore this old set of Ropers. Also came with a set of back up Sanderson stocks. Note the lightening cut in the hammer.



The King brass bead front sight.



Some work on the internals.



The gun was well used in competitive bullseye. By who I could not find out. The work done on it elevated it.

tipoc

I've never seen a mod like this on a Colt V spring action before.

Wasn't exactly sure what it accomplished at first, but I would have to guess that it somehow makes trigger reset faster, as that is the common complaint about Colts in competition. Very interesting gun though.

I like modified guns. They were meant to be used, like they were intended. Use them they did, these modified guns. So the history and performance of them attracts me.

However, they are usually permanently modified, and therefore I don't place premium values on any of them. Unless you get a renowned figure's modified piece. Everything else is just sweet shooters to me.

Since this thread started out about Farrant cut grip frames, I will say those guns are viewed at lesser value to me. You have to consider numerous gunsmiths over the last multiple decades have probably modified guns to fit Farrant grips. So clinging to the fact Fuzzy did it himself is quite a long shot. Iron clad provenance would be needed that Fuzzy did the work to add any premiums, and even then it's still highly subjective per person. As in an actual Fuzzy cut grip frame just isn't that desirable to me.

Just always remember things are highly subjective when it comes to firearms. So pursue what you love and there shouldn't be any problems.

Sometimes being all orginal matters sometimes when the mods are done by a famous gunsmith it's ok if it's documented. But not always documented it's out of the buyers control. It a fine line between the orginal condition and the acceptable mods. Either way enjoy what you have that's what I do.

You might check the law. I believe the law states that is against the law to sell such gun, not possess. I could be wrong though.

Just my non expert and highly opinionated opinion.

#1Top dollar comes from serious collectors. They want pristine, unmolested guns.

#2 Some mods done by famous smiths on working guns may enhance value to some, reduce it to others. If a collector piece is cut up see #1.

#3 I curse John Henry Fitzgerald and his butchery. Cutting the trigger guard on any revolver is an abomination. Guns he personally butchered bring big money from collectors. I am not a collector. To me those guns look horrid and are ruined.

Years ago I bought a Colt Officers Model. Turned out it had been cut for Farrant stocks. Target stocks covered the butchery. Gun was ruined for smaller stocks. On a 3.5" 27 I would only use Magnas and I consider the gun described in the OP to be ruined.

With a modified gun buyer has to decide if he likes it, can live with it, and what it's worth to him. You know what they are generally worth to me.

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No life story has happy end.

You are wrong. The gun itself is illegal and considered to be contraband subject to confiscation. In theory it's illegal to own but nobody gets arrested.

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No life story has happy end.

You are correct, I hadn't looked at the law in decades.

Later on, the GCA made it illegal to obliterate, remove or alter the serial number of a much broader classification of firearm, not just those subject to the NFA. With regards to firearms which are not subject to the NFA, it would appear that it was not necessarily illegal to obliterate, remove or alter the serial number before October 22, 1968.

I think the OP with Farrant grips on a beveled frame is in good shape.
But what of the poor fellow who took the target stocks off his purchase and found the frame beveled underneath? Legality and enforceability of the missing K aside, I think he got gypped.

I bought an unfired 4" 29-3 $250-$300 cheaper than an unmodified unfired 29-3 from the same shop because this on was Magna-ported. It sat forever.

Magna-porting seems to be reviled by collectors. I can't think of anything outside a poor, excessively buffed, re-finish that tanks prices faster then a Magna-port job.

Personally I find it on par with extra, and incorrectly, drilled holes in the gun of any variety. A gun would have to be extremely cheap for me to even consider one with magna-porting. Which I expect is a really good thing for anyone who just wants to shoot the gun.

Quite the thread necromancy here by the way

Reading through my old post on this I would say I stand by it, the only thing I should add is that the Model 3 Double Action turns out to have been factory modified, because of the glorious work the Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation is doing.

A point which I believe should really be raised regarding modified guns. Any gun that has service department markings on it means a chance that the gun will have some documentation on it in the SWHF collection. Which, in my book, is extremely cool. I've been exceptionally blessed with what the SWHF has been able to provide me in terms of documents on my guns. I feel like my fortune is so extreme in this that my case is likely misleading in terms of the odds of getting documents. But still, I think their work really should be considered by anyone picking up a well modified gun.


Edit: One thing I might add, is that in the years since this original post has been made I have seen maybe a dozen or so cut frame guns go by. I'd say they have a very detrimental effect on the value of the guns. Especially when they aren't wearing a set of cut frame stocks.

There is some market for them however, very similar to the various modified PPC guns. People who like the notion of a steep discount on an otherwise good gun for the purpose of shooting.

Also, largely due to this forum's influence, a lot of young people I know, do know Fuzzy Farrant and like his stuff. I think his stocks are common enough that they have a chance of coming across and buying them. Being well made and interesting has led to a lot more young Fuzzy collectors then I would have ever imagined.

RGNewel, guns were not required to have a serial before 1968 and some low end shotguns and 22 rifles did not. But it is illegal to alter or remove a serial if the gun has one regardless of the gun's age.

Might not apply to antiques made before 1898 as the ATF doesn't even consider them to be guns.

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No life story has happy end.

If I'm selling, it's a treasure; if I'm buying, it's an abused piece of junk.

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Pisgah

While the age after 1898 does not mater, prior to the GCA or 1968 it was legal for one to restamp the serial number and even for sometime after 1968 it was legal for gunsmiths to re stamp the original number in another location as at that time the interpretation of the law was the original number and not original stamping. Then the interpretation changed. Kind of like bump stocks are legal, and now they are not without a single change in the written law, just how it was interpreted

So not only is it when the gun was made, but when the restamp was done. Missing part of the original number was always a no after 68 because the number itself was altered.

Then the 1898 date. At this time you could remove the serial number from say a spur trigger 32 S&W and either restamp it or not. But, at sometime in the future that could be interpreted an illegal act. The act would become illegal though, not the gun done before the act. Something that happens prior to a law or change in law can not be prosecuted. Everyone know about Grandfathered.

Law reads something like manufactured prior to 1898 AND uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammuni-tion which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

So increase availability of 32 S&W ammunition could change its status, plus there is that pesky "and". You could read it as manufactured in the US only and not include imported ammo or you could read as made in the us and anywhere else. Who is reading and who is interpreting.

I interpret infringed to include the GCA of 1968. the Supreme Court of course does not. But, then at one time the Supreme court ruled the "US Constitution was not meant to include American citizenship for black people, regardless of whether they were enslaved or free." So, they are not always the actual high water mark or they can change the high water mark.

BTW here is the complete GCA of 68

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...3-2.pdf#page=1

Depends?
A Model 30-1 4" turned into a 32/32 Kit gun with adjustable rear sight, replaced front sight, custom Roper type grips, hand-polished and rust blued.
Increase or decrease value?



3rd Model Single Shot .22, hand-polished and charcoal blued, gold inlaid .22Lr and S&W on barrel, Custom grips.
Increase or decreased value?

SDH,

"Increase or decrease value?" but over what? I'm not sure on the meaning of the question?

GREAT thread . thanks for posting . kenny

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Too good

The value of the unaltered gun.
In the first case a stock Model 31-3 4".
In the second a 3rd Model single shot in ratty condition.

Not all Farrants require the grip frame cut. Here’s a pre27 and 27-2 wearing Farrants that didn’t require the frame cut. I have no interest in a gun with such modification unless it belonged to someone famous/special, was involved in a shootout or was free/cheap.

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213th FBINA

Yes it will hurt the value. And hope the serial number didn't get truncated. It will hurt even more.

__________________
Expect the unexpected

Not for me. I hate a butchered gun, even if it was done by Jesus Christ in person.

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Expect the unexpected

If it scratches your itch for you, a customized gun has increased value for you. It will only have increased value when subsequently sold if someone else has a similar itch. Do you have your guns to make you happy or as an investment? This will determine whether customized guns are for you. My custom builds were designed to make me happy, not to make a profit. They accomplish the first, the second doesn’t enter the equation for me.

Froggie

I am thinking of having a 547 converted to adjustable sights?
Thoughts?

Go for it!!

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213th FBINA

Here's a 629 that WILL NOT sell for anywhere near what a stock 629 would go for!
8 shot, 38 Super, with a different comp!


jcelect

This topic, in one way or another comes up here on the forum very regularly, and it has been made abundantly clear that there is no single answer. The preservationists who don't want to change anything on a gun from the way it is found to the utilitarians who regard their guns as tools to be shot, carried, and altered as needed will probably never see eye to eye. Each of us has to decide where he or she stands and do what we think is right with our guns.

As one of the Philistines who has altered several revolvers and pistols, I have developed a series of questions to ask before beginning a project.

1) Is the gun I want to build already available as a factory model or similar?
2) Is the donor/base gun already a rare or desirable model?
3) Am I building this gun to add to its value or salability?
4) Will the finished project give me a gun that is more accurate or likely to be more useful to me?
5) Am I planning on keeping the gun for a long time, or do I know of someone who would definitely want it?

If I can't answer questions 1-3 with a hard no, and if I don't feel pretty positively about both 4 and 5, then I look for another project. If I can find an incomplete or otherwise value challenged donor gun as my platform, that always helps, but sometimes the end product demands a better basis to build on.

You might want to look at some of the custom projects of my e-friend Keith44 and some of the discussion threads they inspire. He is the gun customizer I'd like to grow up to be!

All of this is my personal attitude and as I said in my opening paragraph, there are two diametrically opposed view on this, so this is still a question that each of us has to answer for themselves.

Froggie

All the museums around here are Covid closed, but with stuff like your write up, I don't need them!
Thanks so much for the tour and education. That was great!

Thanks Froggie, That's what's missing here, guns by Keith44, King of the Kustom .44s!
I have long enjoyed the projects by David Keith, the imagination for his inspiration and the exceptional result he achieves. His creations bring up another reason for inspiration; revolvers that S&W never made, but maybe should have?

SDH, I certainly should have mentioned your work as well... it has been an inspiration to me over the last few years. So much so that I just suggested to a fellow member, initials JC, that he contact you about a project that is way beyond my ken, but which I thought you might be able to help him with. It sounds like it might be interesting and I wish I could have been able to get involved!

Back to the original discussion, when someone is buying an already-built custom firearm of any sort, they are either buying it as an investment if the builder is sufficiently famous or has done a sufficiently impressive job or it is a matter of how well the gun fits the prospective buyer's vision of their "need." (or perhaps how cheaply the owner is willing to sell, precisely because it is not original!)

I've sold three handguns that could be described as fully custom built, two were PPC revolvers built by a well known, but then recently deceased gunsmith... people wanted examples of his work. The other was a 38 Super project, a race gun built during the height of the IPSC craze, and it was sold to another competitor. Yes, I made a little money on each one, but the former two I bought already built, and I was able to get the latter built sort of "on the cheap" by friends who wanted to "play" with my project. I like to think that my recent builds would be attractive to a prospective buyer, but whether I could ever recoup my investments in them is uncertain. They were built for me to enjoy, with other considerations strictly secondary.

I would advise anyone thinking of paying a smith for custom work, especially extensive custom work, to make sure that what is being done is something you will want to live with, or be willing to take a loss on. This is not in any way meant as a slam on custom guns or their builders, it is just a fact of life as I've experienced it.

The "never built but should have" is sort of the inverse of my question #1. I've frequently invoked it when discussing "Project 616" and find it to be a strong impetus for building a custom like DK's "44 caliber Registered Magnum" That so many of us lusted after. Those two beauties you showed Steven fall into the category of "may have been made but are not available," which also includes my Model 16-3 homage... sometimes there just aren't enough of them out there! FWIW, I lust after that single shot too! It's off the charts cool.

Regards,
Froggie

Thanks for the nice words Froggie, truth is I'm not well known enough in the custom revolver world to command the prices I need to keep my shop going. The projects shown here are labors of love, things i wanted to do. I have no idea if they would sell for enough to cover my shop rate?

My friend, Hamilton Bowen's work hasn't been mentioned. When it rarely comes up for sale it brings real money, but it costs real money when the work is performed. Last time I talked with him he wasn't taking in S&W work for a couple of reasons.

I collect .44s and always wanted a 5" Target .44 Sp. I've owned a 6-1/2" Pre-24 since about 1990. A friend offered me a Bowen converted Pre-27 in .44Sp. back when money in (2008) was scarce. I couldn't afford the $1000 at the time. I passed on it~~

Years later I found this M-27-2 offered by a well known dealer with provenance to a respected but not-so-well-know gunsmith. I bought it at auction for $1100 in 2015 and am delighted. It has an original S&W .44Sp. barrel and a reamed cylinder with recessed rims, professional quality work. The revolver was well polished and rust blued. The recessed chambers is a bonus you won't get from any factory Smith .44 Sp. That cost was less expensive than I could do it for. I'll bet it would sell for more than my investment, but it isn't for sale. Sometimes I can't afford my own work...
(The pre-war style magnas are from my workbench.)

SDH - those stocks are stunning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This couldn't be more true.

Except. I would add one thing: if the guns that make you happy are truly fine, good, stylish, and executed by someone like Steven. I believe that in the long run they will turn into a good investment. In the long run.

But if you are looking at a customize gun as an investment, you are doing it wrong. An old one may be something you can at least get your money back out of (if you buy right), with some effort. A new one may appreciate over time, eventually to surpass what you paid for it. But only have many years.


Personally, I think your work is extremely valuable. There are some things I would say that are very important about the revolvers I have seen you customize.

They are your thing. There's no pretense. Which is certainly a reduction in value when the person doing their thing has no style, talent, or just doesn't apply fastidious care to what they are doing. In your case you do all three. So the guns you have customized have improved features, a wonderful finish (that is similar to other finishes in the past, but still yours, and most importantly you apply that fastidious care to the polishing), and your taste pervades the gun, in a subtle way on the gun itself, but shining through on the stocks.

Anyone customizing a gun today can pull from not only their personal desires, but from examples of fine modified guns of the past. The thing is though that working out what you want isn't something you can do with old guns, a new customization is another matter however. There's no reason not to do extremely attractive and unique things on a new customization.

The work you did on the gun that I gifted to my dad I think is a fantastic example of incorporating some of the old, some a bit new, and your style, skill, and artisanal touch.

A "New" King Target



My dad was certainly pleased (to say the least) when I gave it to him.

Regarding the value of your work; I feel like people who want such a gun as this, and people who are willing to pay what the work to have such a gun as this is sadly small group. It's a real shame, because doing a gun like this right is a lot of time, and considering a livable human wage for that work, much less one that factors in the value of the artisanship? It's a hard one.

I do think though that you should entertain projects, mostly because I adore the guns you have done and would like to see more. But I do think it should be clear just how many hours go into such a gun, and you shouldn't be afraid to be upfront that the cost, due to the hours and attention to detail involved, is more then the gun is liable to be worth again in the next decade.

I feel like people who have custom rifles made more or less understand this, but because of the abundance of fine old revolvers, built when extremely skilled labor was cheap, most people have a very skewed notion of how much a custom revolver should actually cost.

Looking at your fine revolver stocks again, I feel like asking you a question that is related, that I feel like I have asked you again, but with my lack of sleep lately I forgot the answer to: have you considered putting your hand to making some fine revolver stocks, just the stocks?


I've said it before, and I will just keep on saying something: The Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation is a far more important, impressive, and amazing deal then people yet realize. In the coming years as they keep pulling information out and attaching it to guns I believe that modified guns, with SWHF documentation, will become a really hot collector's niche.

Since I made my original post in this thread, the fine folks at the SWHF have made me extremely happy. I also can't discount that I am blessed to have received the amazing results that I have been. I don't think every gun can have such a jackpot of information.

This particular gun was such a pleasing surprise:







The factory service department...did this work? For a guy a couple towns north of where my family comes from in Minnesota? Shocking, so awesome. I just couldn't have dreamed that was the case when I bought the gun. I just really loved it.

More documents are in the original thread for your perusal: Updated: Model 3 DA, Factory Modified in '49, The SWHF is awesome!

What does this do the value? I have absolutely no idea. Does it matter? No, the value doesn't matter. It's one of my favorite guns and I wouldn't part with it easily at all. Also (hilariously to me) even before the SWHF information, dibs had been called on the gun if I ever sell it. The one Symposium I was able to attend allowed me to put in the hands of other people, and as neat as the gun is in pictures, it's a real treat to actually handle.


Another SWHF Jackpot (in my personal opinion) is this gun:



Which, hilariously, I tried to make multiple other people buy, because at the time I really didn't have much money and I just knew in my bones it was a special gun. Everyone I tried to get to buy it declined, and I eventually made a low-ball offer on the gun that I could afford (after it sat on gunbroker through multiple auction periods). The seller accepted, and quite a few years later when I checked with the SWHF they came up with such a wonderful collection of letters on it:

Half Target M&P, Update: Another Police Gun!

It's a real pleasure reading these letters.



In any case, I do have one gun which I would like to throw out to this thread, as I have a genuine question about it's value modification (if any). Personally, I find it more valuable, but I wonder if anyone else would.

A new Pre-29, once owned by W. A. Orick



Just your standard 4 screw pre-model 29.

Until you take off the cokes:



Now, to me I don't mind this in the slightest. I think that putting your name on the frame, where no one will see it without removing the stocks, is an excellent way of telling future generations how much you treasure this gun, which you are never going to sell in your lifetime.

The thing is though, the name is an interesting one. It's not common, and that name is most likely to have been a guy who as it turns out was very interesting.

If you go through that thread you will see some of the information that I have on him, being featured in Yank magazine in particular is something else. To me at least.

In my personal ranking as to value, I wouldn't consider the name a negative to the value, although I am sure some would. And because I know that I didn't put it there, and the circumstances under which I acquired the gun mean that the seller in no way profited from the name being under there, I have no doubt whatsoever that W.A. Orick put it there. I could see some suspicion if someone down the line were asked to pay a premium for the name however, assuming I personally haven't established enough credibility in the community to have my word taken that I didn't put it there.

Truthfully, I had only purchased the gun as trade fodder. Being a high condition pre-29 with the original cokes making it an amazing gun, but not quite something I need in my oddball collection. Then with the name, my valuation (maybe no the right word, maybe esteem?) of the gun was cranked up many notches. Which is why I still own it, that bit of history is just way too cool to me.


The question though: do you folks think this modification increases, decrease, or has no effect on the value of the gun?

I'm not likely to sell it any time soon, but I'd love opinions on the matter.

I used to have the sweetest little 4" Heavy Duty that Hamilton rebored and rechambered to 45 Colt. Ended up selling that one and regretting it since.

Two Bowens I've kept that are appropriate for a S&W forum are this Ruger Redhawk restyled to a 1917 style and rebored and rechambered to 45 Colt. Bowen removed the rib from the barrel leaving just a touch to serve as a sight base

The Blackhawk has a S&W style Ribbed barrel with hand removable front sight, also a made from scratch linebored 38 special cylinder, Turnbull coloring, nitre blue screws and pins, and a gorgeous set of custom grips made by a friend with pre ban Ivory I had stashed away.
Like Sixgunstrumpets Colt SAA, the whole of the value of these guns is in the customization.

Those Bowen guns are kind of incredible. The "1917 Style" Redhawk has always amused me greatly, although it seems like a tremendous amount of work for very little more then a change to aesthetics. Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely love to own one, but still it's not quite like the Blackhawk there which has been upgraded not just for aesthetics, but also for function.

This thread has me looking at my guns, and reminded me of my Colt... thing. Another good candidate for pondering value...

So as not to confuse anyone looking at; The gun is actually a Police Positive with a frame cut and modified to fit Pocket Positive grips. The barrel was replaced with a Detective Special barrel, and then the front sight modified to be a ramp. The gun is chambered in .38 S&W. It's a real treat in the hand, and had Colt produced a gun in this configuration I expect it would have been very popular.











Aside from the fact that I love showing people an example of fine old gunsmithing to a good purpose, I wanted to highlight this gun to highlight an interesting aspect (I think) to this question of customized guns.

I paid less then 200 for this, and I doubt it would really sell for a whole lot more then that now. The colt collectors just seem to have little to no interest in anything "wrong" like this gun. At least not interest in regard to it bringing decent money, I know there are quite a few who would like to own it, just not pay for it.

On the other hand.

Imagine if someone had taken a Regulation Police, put a later 2" terrier barrel on it, upgraded the sight, and done something wacky like modified the frame extensively to fit K-frame stocks (giving it a bigger grip to hold onto). Not that anyone would do that since you could just make bigger grips, but for the example to fit regarding the extensive amount of work for the purpose of making the gun more useful.

It is my belief that such a gun would hold the interest of a larger pool of S&W collectors, and thus command a higher price.

The tolerance for interesting, quality, positive modifications among the S&W community just seems to be higher from what I have seen. Of course, a big part of me posting this is to ask if I am off base in this observation, I have a hard time sometimes understanding the Colt community because they aren't as open as the S&W community.

Sacrifices must be made! Actually between the barrel rebore done to a higher level that the old factory bore, the rechambered cylinder done to tighter tolerances than factory, and a very nice trigger job, I've probably gained more accuracy than I've lost with the compromise in sights, though there's no denying a compromise was made. I've always been a sucker for nice aesthetics though. As to the OPs question, I believe the 1917 styling cues add value to the gun.

Here's an example of a no stone unturned Bowen which wears a set of sights that leave a little on the table in terms of usability, but makes up for it in the looks department. Kind of like carved ivory grips, I usually can't shoot them as well as a a smooth set, but I buy every set I can find.