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Old 09-08-2017, 06:36 PM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
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Default Does "Customizing" Hurt the Value?

This is a classic case of a double edged sword. I am watching a model 27 with 3 1/2 inch barrel and Fuzzy Farrant stocks. Mr. Farrant cut the grip frame when he installed a set of his stocks.

He was an armorer for the Los Angeles police department for many years and these were his trademark. Does this hurt the value of the gun or increase the value?

The gun is in Los Angeles and it is obviously his work.

Best,
Charles
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Old 09-08-2017, 06:43 PM
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Fuzzy Farrant and the 1955 Target....
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Old 09-08-2017, 07:07 PM
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Yes, "customizing" hurts the value, with a few exceptions.

A Colt, customized by Fitz, is extremely valuable.

If customized by "Bubba," much value is lost.

Fuzzy Farrant is pretty well known in the gun world, so it could be that his modifications do not damage the value of a revolver; I am not sure.
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Old 09-08-2017, 07:19 PM
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Nowdays not that many remember who he was, and the younger crowd would have no clue, so any "name value" on his work would probably be negligible.

Unless you're looking at much more of a desirable "name", like Fitz mentioned above, custom work generally doesn't repay the money put into it, on a shooter.

I'd call it a shooter, not a collector piece, and you can decide what it's worth to you.
Definitely don't buy it as an investment.
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Old 09-08-2017, 07:38 PM
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In this case, it comes down to the provenance of the gun . Who was the work done for ?
If it was for someone on the LAPD, then that is important to a lot of collectors. If the owner was someone significant, then that is also important to collectors. If nothing is known of the provenance, the gun is probably worth a bit less than one with an uncut frame corner.

As an example, I have a couple of LAPD Chief Ed Davis's K-38's. One of them has the frame corner cut, not by Farrant, but by the LAPD armorer (Walter Stark) who taught Farrant how to do that, and how to make grips. That gun is worth a whole lot more than a standard K-38.

Here is a photo of four members of the LAPD shooting team, including Farrant and Stark.



Regards, Mike Priwer

Last edited by mikepriwer; 09-08-2017 at 07:49 PM. Reason: Added picture of LAPD shooting team
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Old 09-08-2017, 08:00 PM
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Default The Black Pearl ... Bubba or Brilliance?


My Custom Carry 4516-1 ~ The Black Pearl

While the word "Bubba" did come up in the opening responses to the sticky thread on the build of this weapon, which was so well documented by the Master Chief, those comments quickly stopped as his craftsmanship became so obviously apparent

For me the finely crafted weapon is a "Pearl of great price" and therefore of great value to me. At auction it may not carry the provenance and pedigree it would here on this forum.

It's not for sale in any case at any price. It's a treasured possession to be held and used as it was intended.



digiroc

Shoot Well My Friends

Last edited by digiroc; 09-08-2017 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 09-08-2017, 08:15 PM
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How do you view King's work ? To a collector who wants a gun as close to factory specs King's work would be a sacrilege to a collector who admires King's work finding a gun with King modifications it would be a find.
The old adage 'BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER" comes into play.
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Old 09-08-2017, 09:18 PM
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Here are some factors from the eyes of a gun molester.

What kind of shape is the gun in when you start. If LNIB or above 95% your probably going to hurt value unless it is a very common model. How common is it and how desirable is that model.

Examples. I picked up a 1917 that didn't have its original barrel and the poor excuse for a barrel it did have was loose. Price $300. Cut down and installed a 1950 45 barrel and added ajustable sights. Modified grip frame and made a sett of blood wood grips. Get offers for it on a regular basis. Shooter 629-1 with an 8 3/8 barrel and rubber grips. $500. Reamed to 45 colt and cut for acp and moonclips, installed 4" barrel. Who would buy a dual caliper 4" 45 for say $850. Did almost the same thing to another 629-1 I picked up for I think around $550 only it got a %" barrel and cylinder only takes 45 colts not cut for clip. A 10-2 with a cracked forcing cone now has a 2 1/2 model 19 barrel and a recessed model 19 cylinder and is round butted. A work model 28 becomes a 6" 34 colt. etc etc

But, my 1955 with a reamed 455 colt cylinder lost vaue. My 455 triple lock was nicely reamed to 45 colt before I got it, and less valuable than if it had been left alone. If I took a nice 27-2 and madee it a 45 it would loose value.

Some guys wouldn't buy a convertted 629-1 and some want a 45 colt and don't care how it became one.

Hey, I just won a 629-1 with a Leopold mount and red dot for $559 and $40 shipping. I have another 4" 45 barrel I got from Midway for about $89 when they got a couple in stock. Guess what is getting customized, Bubbaized. What ever.

Is a dual 45 with a 4" barrel worth more than $700 if it started as a 44 mag? I bet it is. I already know someone who wants one.
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Old 09-08-2017, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by policerevolvercollector View Post
This is a classic case of a double edged sword. I am watching a model 27 with 3 1/2 inch barrel and Fuzzy Farrant stocks. Mr. Farrant cut the grip frame when he installed a set of his stocks.

He was an armorer for the Los Angeles police department for many years and these were his trademark. Does this hurt the value of the gun or increase the value?

The gun is in Los Angeles and it is obviously his work.

Best,
Charles
One caveat. Sometimes the cutting of the grip frame would remove the letter prefix of the serial number. If left that way, the result is a defaced serial and consequently a gun not legal to own. Seems like smiths were often casual about that back in the day.
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Old 09-08-2017, 11:08 PM
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One caveat. Sometimes the cutting of the grip frame would remove the letter prefix of the serial number.....
That's not a problem in this particular example. The 'S' prefix on N frames in that time frame wasn't placed as far from the S/N as on K frames.

Mark
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Old 09-08-2017, 11:19 PM
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I've been watching that gun, and I'm not tempted to bid for a couple reasons. First thing is the seller's assertion that the gun was found in his elderly aunt's garage - and that he's selling it for her. Then today I noticed the high bidder is a non-rated bidder who's been a member of that site for 3 years with no feedback. That smells like a shill bidder to me.

That said, the fact that it has the Farrant modification wouldn't bother me on that gun. The serial number - including the 'S' prefix - remains intact due to the placement of the prefix being adjacent to the S/N.

Mark
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Old 09-08-2017, 11:57 PM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
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I just checked the seller's other items for sale. His story is his elderly aunt found a Model 27-1 w/ Farrant srocks & a Colt 1911a1 wearing pearls in her garage and she doesn't know how they got there. He is listing the guns because she does not have email. But, she will transfer them through a FFL dealer.

Hmmmm.................... Sounds completely legit to me.

Best,
Charles
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by policerevolvercollector View Post
This is a classic case of a double edged sword. I am watching a model 27 with 3 1/2 inch barrel and Fuzzy Farrant stocks. Mr. Farrant cut the grip frame when he installed a set of his stocks.

He was an armorer for the Los Angeles police department for many years and these were his trademark. Does this hurt the value of the gun or increase the value?

The gun is in Los Angeles and it is obviously his work.

Best,
Charles
If the gun can be shown and documents as Farrant's work that will increase the value of the gun. The same if it was Stark who did it. That depends of documentation though.

Anyone familiar with the prices that Farrants stocks go for on the auction sites can attest that a Farrant of Stark modified revolver will bring a premium. More than a NIB Model of 1950? No. But substantially more than another used firearm in similar condition.

If folks don't know who Farrant was than they are not actually collectors or S&W enthusiasts, or they are new to it and don't know yet.

Like a Pope barrel, or a Phil Sharpe rifle or revolver, or Skeeter Skelton, John Bianchi, etc. Ya don't know till you know.

tipoc
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:24 AM
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Customized guns are indeed a two edged sword....................

A lot of customized guns will bring a premium..... just think about all the guns sent to "Kings" in Calf in the 30s........ for action jobs and sights. For the most part they seem to bring more than used stock guns........

My Dad's 6" .357 Colt New Service went to Kings in 38/39 for an action job and adjustable target sights... is it worth more or less..... who knows... as it is it's already a priceless family heirloom. But pre war Colt .357 were pretty uncommon and one with King sights are probably pretty rare.

My advice customize to your hearts content..... to get the gun you want to carry and shoot......... with a few exceptions I would not advise customizing a gun with the sole intent of trying to increase it's value.
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Old 09-11-2017, 09:05 AM
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Keep in mind that Fuzzy Farrant grips by themselves have sold in the $400 range on this forum.

Bob
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Old 09-11-2017, 11:10 AM
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There are a few of us out there who like to collect customized guns. I would say that the value I personally place on a gun has to do first and foremost with the provenance, followed by the quality of the modifications, chased by the desirability of the end product.

Because they are always of top quality, I find King guns to be very desirable. Work done by other quality shops and smiths is also of interest. The value on these is always quite subjective however, and personally I enjoy that. When a gun has no comparables I can set a value for the gun that is what *I* am happy paying, and stick to that. With the rise of the internet more comparables sort of emerge, in that I can be looking at a King modified gun and think of the selling price of other King modified guns, but still, each gun is almost always unique in regard to what has been changed on it.

Real provenance on a gun really does turn a modified gun into something special, even a C-word. For example, one of my favorite guns is this thing:



Which has been pretty extensively modified by King. Between the sight work and the speed holes in the hammer, and the clear action work, it's really be set up for someone to shoot in DA. The reason why starts to become clear if you flip it over:



Fortunately for me the owner of this gun in 1977 decided to write a letter to a guy who might know who Bill Keim was:



and Col. Askins responded:



So as an example of modifications improving the gun (making it one heck of a neat shooter, and showing some fantastic pre-ww2 gunsmithing), and being explained by provenance (this was a shooter for a man who had lost an arm in a heroic fashion), the overall effect is a greatly increased value.

On the other hand, let's take another Colt:





I bought this off of Gunbroker, it came out of a Florida pawn shop. I bid something like 75 bucks on it and won it. Didn't even realize I had done so. The gun was so undesirable that even though I had been a bad gunbroker-er and failed to realize I had won, when I contacted the pawn shops two weeks too late they were only too glad to actually complete the transaction.

The work done to it is interesting, but problematic. As near as I can tell it is shootable, the action is good, but the extractor was installed wrong and precludes me from actually putting bullets into the chambers. I've had kroil in it forever and I can't get it to budge to fix it. Someday I'll repair it.

Is this a valuable gun? No. Not at all. Does it have provenance? Only what a person makes up in their mind. I personally still greatly enjoy this gun because the gun itself *looks* like it has a story. I have fun with that... or at least I have $75 worth of fun with it.

Moving onto actual Smiths for a while, if we are talking "customized" but not modified, this is where we get into talking about incorrect stocks:





Here is a place I really love to be. This gun for example is a Non-Registered Magnum from about 1940 equipped with a fine set of Kearsarge stocks made by Charles Wendell. To my eye such a gun couldn't be much improved over what we are looking at here. As much as I like original, the folk art style beauty in a set of stocks like this really sets the gun off.

To go with another example of a S&W that is very neat being both modified and equipped with Kearsarge:






Here we have what started life as a .22/32 Heavy Frame Target, and sometime later was equipped with the 4" barrel and the King front sight. I added the Kearsarge stocks to complete the package to my liking. It's sort of a 'Virtual' pre war kit gun in that it appears to have all the proper parts for a pre-war Kit gun, but was modified later to actually fit that role. The finish gives us a bit of a clue as to when it might have been done as it is a post-war matte blue. Whatever the case is I love shooting it, and am happy as a clam about this "wrong" gun. What is the value of this one? Completely subjective, if I were to sell it I would have to pick some price and throw it out there to see if it would stick.

That's the thing though, a gun like this? I'm probably never going to sell. How would I replace it?

Speaking of which, lets move onto another customized old S&W:





This one has had some serious stuff done to it:



Here, I have no actual proof of anything. I have only speculation. The thing is that I love the thing, and it speaks for itself. Regardless of who did the work, and for whom it was done, the work is absolutely top notch and fascinating. The idea seems to be that someone in the 1940s wanted a nice concealable gun in a cartridge that could stop a man, but that they could reload lightning quick... so they modernized a Model 3 DA and then refined it as they shot it to try to get it right? (The trigger guard was rounded off some time after the reblue, and I believe the Sanderson stocks were a later addition). It's overall a heck of a neat customized gun.

Value? I know what I paid for it, but that's it. What could I get for it? Who knows. (I must say that I personally harbor a theory that Elmer Keith had at least something to do with this one, and that Herb Bradley was the guy who did the work, as the gun did come out of a pawn hop in Idaho, but I could never confirm that, and likely never will unless someone online recognizes it).

Sometimes guns also prove to be a surprise. Case in point:







I thought King might have done this, but I wasn't sure until I lettered it:



Do I have an actual document that says King modified the sights? No. However, the front and rear sight blades are in fact King, and the gun clearly was in San Francisco. What are the chances that anyone but King did this? The thing is though, if I ever sold it, I wouldn't say it's a "King Modified" gun, I would say that I believe it is a King Modified gun, and give my evidence.

I personally would be happy to believe that evidence if someone sold it to me as such, however if they said it was 100% certainly a King gun I would have to object for two reasons. The first being that there isn't actual documentation supporting that claim, and the second is that it just doesn't matter. This gun is great for what it is, a documented SFPD Police gun that was later modified to have some good sights, almost (but not provably) done at the D.W. King shop. If that's not good enough for the buyer, this is not the gun for them.

And one last surprise customized gun:





When I bought this it was advertised as a King modified Bisley, no mention of the 'Keith No. 5' grip shape. It wasn't a king however, which was clear when I got it. Couple months later the auction house sent me this:



So it was actually a Colt modified gun, in 1920 for an easily searched target shooter?...

What does that do the value?


In the end if you have a customized gun my advice is:

1) Find and document any real information you can on it.
2) Extensively photograph it to look for anything about the gun that might have been modified but no obvious.
3) Clearly separate speculation about who may have worked on the gun from fact, and be entirely clear about that.
4) Enjoy it for what it is. It's "wrong" yes, but wrong can be right, and more importantly it can be incredibly interesting.
5) Don't worry about value, buy it or own it because you love it. Value on so many of these can only really be established in an auction anyway.

Last edited by SixgunStrumpet; 09-11-2017 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 09-11-2017, 11:32 AM
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Below are two M&P revolvers from the immediate postwar period. They began life in the same configuration (except for the "Speed Hammer") a couple of years apart. The lower gun left the factory and was sent directly to King's in S.F. where it was modified.













tipoc

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Old 09-11-2017, 11:53 AM
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Another from King's in S.F. but of the other kind. A Colt Officer's Model Match. When I found it the original stocks were long gone. It wore this old set of Ropers. Also came with a set of back up Sanderson stocks. Note the lightening cut in the hammer.



The King brass bead front sight.



Some work on the internals.



The gun was well used in competitive bullseye. By who I could not find out. The work done on it elevated it.

tipoc
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:13 PM
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I've never seen a mod like this on a Colt V spring action before.

Wasn't exactly sure what it accomplished at first, but I would have to guess that it somehow makes trigger reset faster, as that is the common complaint about Colts in competition. Very interesting gun though.

I like modified guns. They were meant to be used, like they were intended. Use them they did, these modified guns. So the history and performance of them attracts me.

However, they are usually permanently modified, and therefore I don't place premium values on any of them. Unless you get a renowned figure's modified piece. Everything else is just sweet shooters to me.

Since this thread started out about Farrant cut grip frames, I will say those guns are viewed at lesser value to me. You have to consider numerous gunsmiths over the last multiple decades have probably modified guns to fit Farrant grips. So clinging to the fact Fuzzy did it himself is quite a long shot. Iron clad provenance would be needed that Fuzzy did the work to add any premiums, and even then it's still highly subjective per person. As in an actual Fuzzy cut grip frame just isn't that desirable to me.

Just always remember things are highly subjective when it comes to firearms. So pursue what you love and there shouldn't be any problems.
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Old 09-13-2017, 11:50 AM
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Sometimes being all orginal matters sometimes when the mods are done by a famous gunsmith it's ok if it's documented. But not always documented it's out of the buyers control. It a fine line between the orginal condition and the acceptable mods. Either way enjoy what you have that's what I do.
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