Yesterday you advised me on a Model 1899 U.S. Army revolver that a fellow SWCA member had put eyes on, and that one is on the way, photos will be posted on it's arrival. I paid $1,399 shipped for this one.

BTW the guns in question were owned by a serious collector who recently liquidated his collection. He was into Colts and S&W's among other firearms.

Today I am contemplating a purchase from the same shop and this one has also been seen by the same member and is as follows.

.38 Model of 1905 3rd Change 6" Target with gold bead front sight.
The S/N is 1955XX
The finish is original and excellent as are the stocks.
Although it was produced in 1915, it did not ship until August 30th, 1916 as per the letter from Roy Jinks.

It shipped to a wholesale hardware company in Portland, Oregon.

So, let's get to the money part.....I can get this one for $1,499 including shipping/insurance.

Looking at the 4th catalog which has a print date of 2016 I am seeing a note in the section for the 3rd change stating that target models will bring a 50-100% premium. My guess is this one if it was not a target model would would bring around $1,000-$1,200 in the same condition.

Sorry, the only photos I have are on my phone and were sent by the seller and they are OK but not worth posting.

Thoughts?

Attached Images

	IMG_0135.jpg (45.2 KB, 55 views)
	IMG_0138.jpg (52.9 KB, 49 views)
	IMG_0141.jpg (64.8 KB, 37 views)
	IMG_0137.jpg (41.2 KB, 38 views)
	IMG_0146.jpg (61.3 KB, 33 views)

__________________
Tom Graham SWCA #2303

The closest I have is a 1914 non-target third change with matching stocks. It shipped in Oct 1914. I paid $395 for it. Shoots good.

__________________
Mike
S&WCA #3065

Thanks Mike, nice photos and good shooting......hard to compare the standard model pricing to the Target Models though.

__________________
Tom Graham SWCA #2303

The 1899, even at 90% finish, was worth the premium because most of those are very rough. Though there are a few other nicer examples known that is a fine example that any collector should be proud to own.

The M&P Target could be a steal or could be retail +20% given what the condition of 'excellent' is. A mint one would be $2750+ at the drop of a hat, a nice gun with honest flaking will be closer to $1000-1250.

As described, this one may be an excellent deal depending on its exact condition (as George mentioned).

See how easy it is for us to spend your money?

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Yes you guys are spending my money just fine thank you! But it is kind of fun to spend other peoples money I will agree to that. What I'm trying to do here is upgrade the condition of some of the guns I already own or add to the collection with guns that are in better condition than I would normally find. I have a lot of really nice guns in my collection but I'd like to improve the quality and condition as I am able to do so which I think is the goal we all have.

__________________
Tom Graham SWCA #2303

Well, George may be more in tune with current pricing than me. But, I think that one is $300-400 high unless it has some added provenance. Does it come with a box or presentation case?

__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

A noble goal. Once I get through the "amassing" phase of the years and models I want that will be my long term goal as well.

__________________
Mike
S&WCA #3065

Every so often I get the idea (urge) to focus my collecting interests...then all the guns I have start looking at me with sad puppy eyes, and I can't bring myself to do it .

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

No box/papers or presentation case....just the Jinks letter.

I think the asking price of $1,499 is a bit steep and I'll be talking with the shop owner today to see if he can come down a little. I have known the shop owner for nearly 30 years......we'll see.

__________________
Tom Graham SWCA #2303

Tom, a few years from now folks will be yanking their wallets out at that price. High condition prewar M&P Targets don't come along everyday. One of them are on my list for the future.

__________________
Get off my lawn!

Just for comparison, I paid $900 for this 1905 3rd Model Target about two years ago. No box/papers, stocks numbered to gun (sn 225673). Good luck.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

Attached Images

	1905 Target 3rd.jpg (249.7 KB, 73 views)
	1905 Target 3rd 4.jpg (153.0 KB, 51 views)

Was this purchase from a private party, auction or gun shop?

__________________
Tom Graham SWCA #2303

**UPDATE**

Spoke with the shop owner this morning and we agreed on a price of $1,300 with shipping and the Jinks letter, which is $200 off his original asking price and includes shipping.

I am feeling good about this.....of course I am hoping it looks even better when it's in my hands. Should be here on Friday USPS.

Will post photos of this one and the 1899 Army when they are in my possession.

__________________
Tom Graham SWCA #2303

...I won this one on GunBroker last Christmas...I paid $875 plus shipping and FFL...so I have about $930 in it...I think I probably paid a little too much as the seller is a good photographer and it doesn't look quite as good as the photos...the chance you take with an online auction...the stocks do number to the revolver...and are exceptional in my opinion...

__________________
A Country Boy Can Survive

Sounds like you did OK on yours however I think yours is a fourth model whereas mine is a third model and the fourth catalog seems to give the third models a bit more value not sure how true that is but that's what I read.

May be a better educated member then myself can clarify.

__________________
Tom Graham SWCA #2303

...you're right...mine is a fourth model from 1925...serial 4958xx...

__________________
A Country Boy Can Survive

OK that makes sense because from what I understand there are a far greater number of fourth model targets than third model.

__________________
Tom Graham SWCA #2303

There is a premium for the 3rd change vs the 4th change. It's tough to say how much premium though. Excellent in the SCSW says $750. Target models bring a "premium". I don't think I'd be interested at $1500

I paid right at $500 this year for this 4th change if that helps any with value. Its a pre-1920 gun with matching stocks.





Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Private seller at a gun show; not FFL but an S&W collector who shows up at the shows occasionally.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

I think we can all agree that the prices on Smith & Wesson especially prewar models has gone up considerably in the last couple of years. Just look at the David Carroll auctions that have finished and the prices that he has realized. Some of David's items have sold well beyond the "suggested blue book prices" that are posted out there.

And I think all of us if we came across a super clean early target model at a gun shop would be more apt to pay a higher price just because it was right in front of us at the time and they don't pop up every day.

Most of us have been fortunate to come across very clean guns from private parties over the years and have been able to purchase them at below value prices I know I for one have several guns like that in my collection but those finds are getting harder to come by.

__________________
Tom Graham SWCA #2303

I'd snap that up in two seconds FLAT!!

Bottom Line: When and where are you going to find another/better?

Next Bottom Line: When are you going to get more money? Right about this time tomorrow, right?!!

I rest my case!

Ralph Tremaine

I decided I'd like to talk about prices which are "too high". That's a fairly simple concept, but what does it really mean? The next thing I decided was it means the price is more than one WANTS to pay. There are myriad reasons why that may be the case, but we'll keep this simple; and mention only two. The first is the article in question (the merchandise) is a piece of junk, and we wouldn't carry it home if it was given to us. That reason is so basic---so simple, it's not worth talking about. So we won't.

The other reason is we value the possession of our money more than we value the possession of the merchandise----and THAT makes my teeth hurt. Money is something to use, not something to possess. Now, I grant you possession of money gives one a warm fuzzy feeling because it diminishes the fear of the unknown (What's going to happen tomorrow?).

My answer to that question is: Who cares? Push come to shove, each and every one of us in this society is going to get some more money tomorrow. We're going to get it because we earned it, or our investments earned it, or it's going to be given to us. It seems unlikely there are many occupants of this hive who function with money that's given to us, so we don't have to talk about that anymore. So we won't---again.

Money is something to use---not to have.

The End. And while I hope and dream "The End." means that's the last time I feel compelled to run my mouth about this, I know better. But if you should happen to see me scowling and shaking my head, you'll know why.

Ralph Tremaine

I am a bit embarrassed to jump in here with this ugly duckling compared to the beauties here. I believe this poor ugly duckling to be a model 1905 1st, second or third change. I can't really tell and was hoping y'all could help. It's serial number places it in the middle of the serial number run for 1st change models, but that run overlaps with the second change. But then it has the large SW on the right side plate along with the patent dates on the right side of the barrel which are characteristics of the 3rd change.

So what do I have here? I know it is ugly but it was cheap.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm not really going to answer this question beyond saying you have whichever "change" the serial number says you have. Here's why----near as I remember my book learnin'.

All this change business came from the fertile minds of the collector community--which is to say you can't prove a word of it---it is what it is. What it is is a series of conclusions based upon the observations of some folks. What does that mean---did they look at all the guns? Nope! They looked at what THEY decided was enough----and made up some labels.

Why did they do this? I don't know for sure and certain---I wasn't one of the collectors doing the observing and labeling; but I've studied on it. I decided it was done to create an objective and highly complex (and therefore unassailable) reason to buy more guns. I mean why have just one M&P .38 when you can have (and therefore need) eight of them (times two because there are target versions of everyone of them)---and don't forget the different barrel lengths---and finishes.

I used to worry about all this---years ago. I started worrying about it when I got a "fourth change" that didn't have ANY of the "fourth change" stuff in it. I knew it was a "fourth change" because I had a letter that said so. I asked the fellow who wrote the letter about it. He never answered. I reckon my inquiry got lost in the mail.

Now, I can keep this up for a loooooooooooong time, but it's way past my bed time.

Ralph Tremaine

I hope Ralph slept well last night . Looks like you have a Model 1905, 2.5 Change. It's in between the 2nd and 3rd. It has the old CTG stamp with the patent info on the right side and a large trademark stamp. I know some folks will say it is a Model 1902 but I don't think you can parse the changes for a round butt after 1905. Probably best to say it is a .38 M&P round butt from around 1909.

__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

rct269 or as I call you Mr.Ralph Tremaine ,thanks for your views on money especially the paper stuff we Americans have come to call money as you are so correct .What is a gun any gun worth? If I am a multimillionaire a gun my be worth 10 grand as that wouldn't be much money to me but if I am a guy working with kids and a mortgage I would say that is too much for any gun so it depends .As far as classics go if I was a multimillionaire I would have at least two of every gun I could get my hands on one to look at and one to shoot and a guy to keep em clean so soon I would be that guy that use to be a millionaire but threw all that money away on guns but he sure was happy lol. 1902 1st change second change ummm I don't know but I do know they don't make em like that anymore you can't say that about dollars .

Thanks for the insight......I was primarily hoping to at least narrow the date of the gun and you have helped immensely. If a serial number helps........


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Well that's a lot easier----and more or less meaningless.

This game is played by bracketing your serial number (with shipping dates) and then proceeding with the totally fallacious assumption yours shipped in between. And while it's totally fallacious, sometimes it's right-----so sometimes totally fallacious isn't all that total.

The nature of this hive is pretty much that of a cooperative---which is to say everybody helps out when they can. Some of that help is required right about now, because I have only one number to offer. (I have others, but they're so far away their use would brand me as a dummy-----again.)

So----------116420 shipped June 20, 1910. It's a 5" target. Targets guns tended to hang around in inventory longer than people guns, so their use in creating this totally fallacious assumption is sometimes/often more totally fallacious than other times.

And by the by, it's a "first change". I know this because I've got one of those letters that says so.

Ralph Tremaine

Well, t he serial is smack in the middle of the 1st & 2nd Change range. It has the two dowel pins in the extractor star so it's not a 1st change. But it has features that purportedly didn't show up until 3rd Change. Curiouser and Curiouser. I think I'll stick with Change 2.5.

__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Now THAT sounds like a PLAN!!

Ralph Tremaine

Now that that is all cleared up I can go to sleep early. I appreciate all the help....I was just trying to narrow the date down to at least the early 1900s and y'all did that. Before I retire for the evening let me ask one last question. Do you think it is original nicke? Now I will run and hide......

Looks original to me.

__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629