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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 09-12-2017, 05:48 PM
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Default Post-War, LA, One-line, M&P Snub? SWHF Update
SWHF update down in post #20.

Got my second post-war long action 38 in as many weeks the other day. I knew there was a star on the butt from the pictures but figured I'd give it a shot.

Great blueing with a couple spots of wear, nearly no turn line, dirty with lint, super tight, great action, timing spot on, matching frame/cylinder/yoke/ejector/stocks...not barrel.

This went back to the factory in Feb 1950, where I'm guessing the barrel was replaced? The blueing is slightly off from the frame. The question is, did the factory mis-stamp the serial on the barrel or did some lucky previous owner happen to find a barrel that was exactly 11,000 off? The barrel pin is a bit buggered on the right side.

I may just have to letter this one.
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Old 09-12-2017, 05:50 PM
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And some with big brother...
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:02 PM
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My guess is the workman at S&W who serialized the replacement barrel misread the 5s as 6s or misread the 6 on the stamp as a 5. Less than perfect collector status has its advantages -- you can shoot it & carry it. It would be a great find in my neighborhood.
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:07 PM
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My guess is this was rebarreled from a 5" revolver. I don't show any 2" guns in that immediate serial range, and I have recorded some 5" guns very close and on either side of your number. I do show a batch of 2" square butt examples in the S957xxx to S960xxx range and in the S966xxx range.

I suspect your revolver got itself a non-factory barrel swap sometime after it made its visit to the Service Department in February, 1950.

If this was a factory conversion, the SD would have stamped the correct serial number on the barrel flat. It stretches credibility to think the technician stamped two incorrect digits, although I agree it is possible. It is interesting that the last three match, I will admit. Strange.
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Old 09-13-2017, 11:51 PM
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I vote mis stamp.

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Old 09-14-2017, 01:21 AM
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....
I suspect your revolver got itself a non-factory barrel swap sometime after it made its visit to the Service Department in February, 1950.

If this was a factory conversion, the SD would have stamped the correct serial number on the barrel flat. It stretches credibility to think the technician stamped two incorrect digits, although I agree it is possible. It is interesting that the last three match, I will admit. Strange.
Given the serial overlap of 4 out of 6 digits, the factory return relatively soon after the gun's birth, and no other discernible reason for the return, I think I would see the stretch more in assuming this is coincidence and there is yet another event, a barrel change independent of the (then unexplained) factory work.

Since the two incorrect digits are the same, they really might require only one misread, a happenstance easier to imagine. Did the tech stamp the barrel before or after installation? Did he read the serial off the butt or off a piece of paper where someone might have noted it incorrectly or with bad handwriting? Imponderables ...
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Old 09-14-2017, 09:00 AM
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Old 09-14-2017, 09:10 AM
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I say outside the factory barrel swap. The Service Department would never let a barrel pin leave the shop like yours.
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Old 09-14-2017, 10:54 AM
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I say outside the factory barrel swap. The Service Department would never let a barrel pin leave the shop like yours.
Following Bill's recent announcement, this gun falls into the time frame that is now accessible for resesearch by the SWHF, and there just MIGHT be a record of the 1950 rework, which would settle this. If this were my gun, it would be worth the money. But then, I've always been the curious type .
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Old 09-14-2017, 11:15 AM
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....The Service Department would never let a barrel pin leave the shop like yours.
It's also hard for me to imagine that the service department would send a gun out with a color mismatched barrel - if they indeed had performed the barrel swap.

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Old 09-14-2017, 11:24 AM
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Don and wheelgun610 make good points. Also, to me, the S966xxx serial number is significant, because it is known that 2" guns were assembled in that serial range. I'm sticking with my opinion that this was an aftermarket barrel swap.

I've been wrong before, but this time I don't think I am.
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Old 10-01-2017, 03:21 PM
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Letter arrived yesterday. Confirmed shipped as a 5" to Salt Lake City with 53 friends.

Now I'll have to see if there are service records available. I'm still torn on whether this was a mis-stamp or a giant coincidence. I think the mis-stamp has better odds than finding the exact same last three digits.
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Old 10-01-2017, 03:36 PM
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Letter arrived yesterday. Confirmed shipped as a 5"
As suspected. Thanks for the update. Info now entered in my database.

Roy's statement seems to confirm the idea that the barrel swap was done by the SD. Cool! So, you may be right about the mis-stamp. Interesting!
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Old 10-01-2017, 06:06 PM
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"I suspect your revolver got itself a non-factory barrel swap sometime after it made its visit to the Service Department in February, 1950.

If this was a factory conversion, the SD would have stamped the correct serial number on the barrel flat. It stretches credibility to think the technician stamped two incorrect digits, although I agree it is possible. It is interesting that the last three match, I will admit. Strange."

Jack,

I have to disagree with you on this. First, it is not that common for a gunsmith changing a barrel to stamp the serial number on the new barrel at all. Second, the misalignment is indicative of hand-stamping with individual stamps. This is how the service department does/did it!

It seems far more likely for the individual doing the work to misread the number, misread the stamp, or to have previously misfiled the stamps in the block and the 5 & 6 were in the wrong holes, than a non-factory smith made the same error and stamped the barrel at all. Far more likely to be factory, especially with the re-work star and no apparent indications of a refinish also.

As an aside, I have always wondered why the vast majority of 2" M&Ps of the post-war period were square butt instead of round? Seems counter-intuitive when the guns were intended for concealment and the square butt guns are longer and have a sharp point sticking out that tends to damage the interior of the typical detectives suit jacket or sport coat!
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Old 10-01-2017, 06:45 PM
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While Roy's opinion in the letter seems to confirm my and others opinion that a factory barrel change appears more likely, let's not forget that the scepticism of others is based on matters of physical appearance which Roy likely was not privy to in detail when he added the comment to the letter.

I'm still hoping the SWHF records may hold a definite answer about that 1950 factory return.
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Old 10-01-2017, 11:15 PM
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"As an aside, I have always wondered why the vast majority of 2" M&Ps of the post-war period were square butt instead of round? Seems counter-intuitive when the guns were intended for concealment and the square butt guns are longer and have a sharp point sticking out that tends to damage the interior of the typical detectives suit jacket or sport coat!"

How true, how true! The grip frame dictates how well the handgun conceals. A 2" K frame square butt not only is harder to hide, many folks insist in using an outside the waist band and that SB tends to lean away from the body. I round butted a 4" blue M19 back in 1979; it was carried in a pancake holster. The longer barrel pushes on the hip and that pushes the butt inward. Combined with a RB, this combo hides easily and rides on the strong side with more comfort, as opposed to an inside the waist band holster.
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Old 10-01-2017, 11:40 PM
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I have a pre-war K22 that went back to the factory for a frame replacement. They mis-stamped the frame to a number way too early for a K22. All the other stamped parts are correct.
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Old 10-02-2017, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Alk8944 View Post
"I suspect your revolver got itself a non-factory barrel swap sometime after it made its visit to the Service Department in February, 1950.

If this was a factory conversion, the SD would have stamped the correct serial number on the barrel flat. It stretches credibility to think the technician stamped two incorrect digits, although I agree it is possible. It is interesting that the last three match, I will admit. Strange."

Jack,

I have to disagree with you on this. First, it is not that common for a gunsmith changing a barrel to stamp the serial number on the new barrel at all. Second, the misalignment is indicative of hand-stamping with individual stamps. This is how the service department does/did it!

It seems far more likely for the individual doing the work to misread the number, misread the stamp, or to have previously misfiled the stamps in the block and the 5 & 6 were in the wrong holes, than a non-factory smith made the same error and stamped the barrel at all. Far more likely to be factory, especially with the re-work star and no apparent indications of a refinish also.
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For what it is worth, I have come to agree with you. I was tending that way anyhow after Absalom's earlier feedback (Post #6), but Roy's note pushed me all the way over.

Thanks for the interaction! It is one great thing about this Forum. It sharpens all of us!

Edit: I do get brownie points for my belief that the gun originally had a 5" barrel, don't I???
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Old 10-02-2017, 12:49 AM
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As an aside, I have always wondered why the vast majority of 2" M&Ps of the post-war period were square butt instead of round?
With respect to the 2" S prefix revolvers, the jury is still out as to whether this is the case.

In my database of more than 1,000 examples (approximately 800 of which I have inspected either in person or via photos) roughly 11% left the factory with 2" barrels. More have been reported so far with square butts than round, but I really don't know if that reflects reality as to how many were actually produced with square rather than round butts. At this point, I cannot rule on that question with any level of certainty. Maybe someday I can . . .

If SBs were more common, perhaps the answer lies in the fact that 2" orders came in periodically and got assembled on SB frames, since all the 4", 5" and 6" guns had that frame and they would be readily available. RB frames would have to be in stock or forged just for the 2" guns. Seems a reasonable speculation to me, since demand for the M&P was quite high during the 1946-48 period.

We'll learn more as time goes by.
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Old 12-14-2017, 02:26 PM
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The SWHF came through and found the service request from 1950. This revolver shipped as a 5" M&P to Utah then somehow made its way to Lansing, MI for the Michigan State Police to send it back to S&W for the new barrel (and an incorrect serial stamp). What happened in between is anybody's guess.
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Old 12-14-2017, 03:23 PM
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The SWHF came through and found the service request from 1950. This revolver shipped as a 5" M&P to Utah then somehow made its way to Lansing, MI for the Michigan State Police to send it back to S&W for the new barrel (and an incorrect serial stamp). What happened in between is anybody's guess.
Very cool!!! Thanks for posting the invoice.
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