Repaired 2 years before it was shipped?? **New information from Roy Jinks**

[THREEDFLYER]

Found something interesting today while cleaning/examining a recent acquisition.....

The M&P Target that I purchased arrived and when the stocks were removed I noticed the numbers 4 14 stamped on the left side of the grip frame.

The Jinks letter that came with the purchased states that the revolver shipped from S&W on August 30th, 1916.

All serial numbers match and are correct to the gun......so I am stumped as to what the date stamp might represent? There is no "Star" stamped on the but and no other numbers/stamps that seem out of ordinary.

As a side note....I was told this gun was originally owned by a famous safari hunter, gun collector, writer named Samuel Lee Maxwell Sr. who wrote two books on Colt Firearms and the Burgess Rifle. This information was provided to me by the gun shop owner who sold me the revolver, but I have no way to verify.

**Just got a response from Roy.....the mystery continues**

"I checked the serial number 195542 and it is blacked out in the shipping records and I can not read it on the microfilm scans. I can say that those around it were shipped in the summer of 1912. I have no idea why it is totally blacken out in the records, it is possible it was returned in 1914 and then resold. I do not know where I got the shipping records that are in the letter." Roy
__________________
Roy G. Jinks
Historian, Smith & Wesson

[Absalom]

If there is no obvious conflict between the gun's serial and the letter's ship date, the only possible answer that would occur to me is that the 4 14 isn't a date stamp. Lots of enigmatic numbers, letters and symbols got stamped on grip frames over time.

[Hondo44]

Very interesting!

With a dilemma like this, I always start by verifying existing information:

Could the letter date be a typo - check with Roy or Don.

Could the 4 14 date have been misread - check with magnification.
It may have been a factory stamping error.

Deviations of star use: Roy Jinks once said that the star wasn't always used (earliest known 1926 and star was on several parts).

SWHF has digitized archives back to 1920. Another year or so and they may have correspondence on a return to factory in '14 or '16.

[THREEDFLYER]

100% positive the numbers are 4 14 and there is a slight space between the number 4 and the 14.

I may post a question to Roy and ask him to clarify the ship date he provided on the letter.

The S/N is 195542 and is considered a .38 Hand Ejector M&P Model of 1905 3rd Change and is a Target Model. Shipped with gold bead front sight and adjustable rear sight.

[Hondo44]

Good idea, Roy may have a "theory".

I have one but w/o knwing of any precedent except that we know nothing was ever finite at S&W.

If the gun was a standard fixed sight model that was converted to a target in the svc dept, later on we know the gun wasn't stamped with a rework date. But maybe that was not yet the 'protocol' on 4 14.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by THREEDFLYER

.....

I may post a question to Roy and ask him to clarify the ship date he provided on the letter.

The S/N is 195542 and is considered a .38 Hand Ejector M&P Model of 1905 3rd Change and is a Target Model. Shipped with gold bead front sight and adjustable rear sight.

Taking a quick look at the SWCA database, August 1916 is some years later than one would expect for the serial #195542. Of course the entries aren't representative, but serials in the vicinity shipped in 1912/13.

Definitely ask Roy about the date and the stamp.

[THREEDFLYER]

Originally Posted by Absalom

Taking a quick look at the SWCA database, August 1916 is some years later than one would expect for the serial #195542. Of course the entries aren't representative, but serials in the vicinity shipped in 1912/13.

Definitely ask Roy about the date and the stamp.

Just posted the question for Roy.....hopefully there was a typo but the description he provides in the letter matches the gun perfectly.....maybe the date is off?

[DWalt]

That is a very low SN for a 1916 shipment. I show no 1916 shipments having SNs anywhere nearly that low. They start around the 24xxxx range. Without the letter, I would say it shipped in 1912-1914. For example, 2112xx shipped in 4/13. Something could have prevented a 1912-1914 shipment so it remained in factory inventory for a few years more.

[glowe]

I have been tracking repair stamp dates and the earliest I have found is 1910. The latest so far is 1983. The earliest I own is a Model 1 1/2 short barrel 32 RF that has a 1914 repair date with a star on the butt. Only about 2% of those recorded dates did not have a star so guessing an omission was done by mistake not design.

There is one 195XXX in the database that shipped in 1912 and this model was flying off the shelves in what looks like close serial number order.

[THREEDFLYER]

I just added a scan of the letter from Roy to my original post......

[THREEDFLYER]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Very interesting!

With a dilemma like this, I always start by verifying existing information:

Could the letter date be a typo - check with Roy or Don.

Could the 4 14 date have been misread - check with magnification.
It may have been a factory stamping error.

Deviations of star use: Roy Jinks once said that the star wasn't always used (earliest known 1926 and star was on several parts).

SWHF has digitized archives back to 1920. Another year or so and they may have correspondence on a return to factory in '14 or '16.

See photos.....I also took a photo of the serial number stamped on the underside of the rear sight.....definitely a factory target model.

[DWalt]

The 4.14 stamp is definitely a factory service date stamp. And it is in the correct location. If it originally shipped in 1916 as the letter said, it had to have been under unusual circumstances. Or else the letter provides an erroneous shipping date.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by DWalt

....., it had to have been under unusual circumstances...

Anyone know how the factory tracked the return and repair of "permanent returns"? I'm just speculating here; could this gun have shipped someplace else earlier, been returned with a serious defect (by a recipient who got his money back and wasn't interested in getting the gun back), repaired in 4/1914 and then later shipped out again to another customer as the need arose? Would that all be reflected in the files that Roy looks at for the letter?

[rct269]

To add to the mystery a bit---------------------

#238778 (also a target) shipped March 5, 1915.

Ralph Tremaine

[Steve912]

Originally Posted by DWalt

The 4.14 stamp is definitely a factory service date stamp. And it is in the correct location. If it originally shipped in 1916 as the letter said, it had to have been under unusual circumstances. Or else the letter provides an erroneous shipping date.

Maybe the grips are from a different revolver?

[THREEDFLYER]

Originally Posted by Steve912

Maybe the grips are from a different revolver?

The date is stamped on the grip frame.....NOT the grip panel.

[Wiregrassguy]

That's a beautiful target gun, Tom!

[rct269]

Originally Posted by Absalom

Anyone know how the factory tracked the return and repair of "permanent returns"? I'm just speculating here; could this gun have shipped someplace else earlier, been returned with a serious defect (by a recipient who got his money back and wasn't interested in getting the gun back), repaired in 4/1914 and then later shipped out again to another customer as the need arose? Would that all be reflected in the files that Roy looks at for the letter?

At the risk of over simplifying it, Roy looks at the (original) shipping records and the invoice. Any record of anything which came to pass after that (the beginning) may or may not be available from the historical foundation. And I suspect anything which came to pass after the beginning would be retrievable ONLY if you had the name of the owner/person involved with the latter activity----initiating the latter activity.

The bad news is it costs money to keep records. A venture for profit keeps/kept records for stuff THEY need to know.

Ralph Tremaine

[THREEDFLYER]

Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy

That's a beautiful target gun, Tom!

Thanks, it is a nice one and the bore and chambers are perfect.....however there is some cancer at the end of the muzzle around the outside that keeps it from being absolutely cherry. Probably stored in a holster and moisture got to it....will never know. That aside for a 100+ year old revolver it made it through pretty well.

[THREEDFLYER]

**Just got a response from Roy.....the mystery continues**

"I checked the serial number 195542 and it is blacked out in the shipping records and I can not read it on the microfilm scans. I can say that those around it were shipped in the summer of 1912. I have no idea why it is totally blacken out in the records, it is possible it was returned in 1914 and then resold. I do not know where I got the shipping records that are in the letter." Roy
__________________
Roy G. Jinks
Historian, Smith & Wesson

[rct269]

Welcome to the club of what's happening now!!

And of course the bad news is we don't care what's happening now---we want to know what happened then. Well good luck with THAT!!

You're not alone. I too have some letters where the last line reads (exactly) as you said-----------"The mystery continues." (Dammit anyhow!!)

Ralph Tremaine

You think we could get a refund of the cost of the letters we don't like? Doesn't seem likely, does it? And even if we could---that's not what we care about. Oh well------on to the next one!

[red9]

[QUOTE=THREEDFLYER;139745753]

As a side note....I was told this gun was originally owned by a famous safari hunter, gun collector, writer named Samuel Lee Maxwell Sr. who wrote two books on Colt Firearms and the Burgess Rifle. This information was provided to me by the gun shop owner who sold me the revolver, but I have no way to verify.

Could a Samuel Lee Maxwell Sr. have rated one of the infamous "open on factory records"? Shipped to him on loan for an article or hunting trip and later returned to the factory? Then refreshed by the factory before resale.

Bob

[THREEDFLYER]

Bob, that is a good question......I need to find out when this Mr. Maxwell was roaming this earth and if he would have been around in the 1912 time frame....

[DCWilson]

The first edition of Maxwell's book on Colt-Burgess rifles was published in 1985. A different rifle book was first published in 1976. If he was the original owner of a gun shipped before WWI, he was a precocious buyer. He may have been a previous owner of the revolver in question, but I doubt he was the first.

The SSDI contains two candidates named Samuel L. Maxwell, both of them alive at the time the books were published. One was born in 1921, the other in 1924. There are other Sam Maxwells who should be considered, but I didn't dig into them.

[DWalt]

Just a cursory search on that name using several sources suggests the gun shop owner's tale about a Samuel Lee Maxwell Sr. from that time period is likely to have been spurious. Unless he can produce some documentation in support.

[THREEDFLYER]

OK just to clarify the gun shop owner that sold me the revolver did not say that Maxwell was the original owner he just said that Maxwell was a collector and this came from his collection so based on the timeframe there's no way this guy was alive when the gun was made

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by THREEDFLYER

**Just got a response from Roy.....the mystery continues**

"I checked the serial number 195542 and it is blacked out in the shipping records and I can not read it on the microfilm scans. I can say that those around it were shipped in the summer of 1912. I have no idea why it is totally blacken out in the records, it is possible it was returned in 1914 and then resold. I do not know where I got the shipping records that are in the letter." Roy
__________________
Roy G. Jinks
Historian, Smith & Wesson

Ooooh...! A "black" gun! A cover-up ! This is getting intriguing.

At least it's nice to know that I wasn't way off with my idea of a return and resale and Roy considers the same possibility.

[mikepriwer]

Tom, et al

I had a .32-20 M&P revolver that was shipped twice. It first went to a dealer in Philadelphia around 1930, and was returned as new in about 1938. It was originally shipped as an M&P. The factory accepted the return, and refunded the money. They then converted it to a target, and shipped it to another dealer in 1938. Fortunately the shipping records were not altered/blacked out, and so all of this was readable.

I tend to lean towards Roy comments, that for whatever reason, the gun was shipped twice, to two different places.Just for fun, you might remove the rear sight blade, and see what it is numbered to.

Regards, Mike Priwer

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by mikepriwer

.....

I had a .32-20 M&P revolver that was shipped twice. It first went to a dealer in Philadelphia around 1930, and was returned as new in about 1938. It was originally shipped as an M&P. The factory accepted the return, and refunded the money. They then converted it to a target, and shipped it to another dealer in 1938. Fortunately the shipping records were not altered/blacked out, and so all of this was readable.

........

Mike:

Was all this information included in the original letter on the gun, or did it require additional research on your part?

[THREEDFLYER]

Originally Posted by mikepriwer

Tom, et al

I had a .32-20 M&P revolver that was shipped twice. It first went to a dealer in Philadelphia around 1930, and was returned as new in about 1938. It was originally shipped as an M&P. The factory accepted the return, and refunded the money. They then converted it to a target, and shipped it to another dealer in 1938. Fortunately the shipping records were not altered/blacked out, and so all of this was readable.

I tend to lean towards Roy comments, that for whatever reason, the gun was shipped twice, to two different places.Just for fun, you might remove the rear sight blade, and see what it is numbered to.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike, See photos above showing the underside of the rear sight.....it' is numbered to the gun.

[mikepriwer]

Absalom

That information was in the original factory letter. It came from the shipping records, wherein there was a double entry (written on the same line) for the shipping information.

Tom

I was asking about the rear sight blade, not the underside of the rear sight leaf. Remove one or both of the windage screws, and slide the blade out. It ought to be numbered, either the frame serial number, or the yoke work order number.

Regards, Mike Priwer

[THREEDFLYER]

Originally Posted by mikepriwer

Absalom

That information was in the original factory letter. It came from the shipping records, wherein there was a double entry (written on the same line) for the shipping information.

Tom

I was asking about the rear sight blade, not the underside of the rear sight leaf. Remove one or both of the windage screws, and slide the blade out. It ought to be numbered, either the frame serial number, or the yoke work order number.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Ok Mike
I will take a look and report back
When I look through one of the Chambers in the cylinder at the yoke I can see the serial number stamped there