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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 09-15-2017, 09:28 AM
lorlei lorlei is offline
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This is a gun just in at my husbands shop. No background knowledge on it. It is a .38, 5" barrel,, and fixed sight. Serial number on the butt 6 numbers starting in 831. No model number that I can find. Has strain screw on front grip and a butt swivel. Significant letters which I think may be an import stamp IACO SAC CA. Any help would be appreciated. Looks like a Pre Victory but possibly a 1905??
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:03 AM
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Yes, that is a pre-Victory and someone will be along with a fairly precise date of shipment (probably around 1940). The marks are the importer as you say. And the caliber was most likely originally .38 S&W (not .38 Special), but many of these were altered. Have you tried a cartridge to see if it fits?
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:25 AM
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I have not tried a .38 as I don't have any on hand at the moment. I only have .38 special. .38 special would be a loose fit correct?
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:25 AM
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Looks like an M&P .38 (Model of 1905 Change 4). If no prefix it possibly shipped in 1941. Is it a .38SW or a .38 special (it will say on the other side of the barrel in the picture you posted).

This one is s/n 765xxx and it shipped in Apr 1941

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Old 09-15-2017, 10:30 AM
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I answered in your other post. It is prob a Model of 1905 change 4. If it is a .38 SW it is or was prob a .38/200 British Service Revolver.

Here is a five inch barrel that is a .38 special. It shipped in 4/41 and the s/n is 765xxx. Close to yours.

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Old 09-15-2017, 10:31 AM
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It may be a trick of the light, but it almost looks like it has a bulged barrel.
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorlei View Post
I have not tried a .38 as I don't have any on hand at the moment. I only have .38 special. .38 special would be a loose fit correct?
The .38 special is longer than the .38 S&W. If altered, the special round will drop in and be a loose fit. If unaltered, it will stick out a mite.
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorlei View Post
I have not tried a .38 as I don't have any on hand at the moment. I only have .38 special. .38 special would be a loose fit correct?
Welcome to the Forum! A .38 special is longer than a .38 S&W.
.38 special is on the right. Hope this helps. Bob
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:49 AM
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It's definitely a .38 not .38 special
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorlei View Post
...... It is a .38, 5" barrel,, and fixed sight. Serial number on the butt 6 numbers starting in 831.....

Significant letters which I think may be an import stamp IACO SAC CA. Any help would be appreciated. Looks like a Pre Victory but possibly a 1905??
A Pre-Victory IS a 1905 .

It is indeed a British Service model from mid-1941. I don't see any markings, so that's about it as far as info goes. The gun is too early for the smooth walnut stocks, so those are not original to this gun. IACO, which stands for InterAmerican Company, of Sacramento, CA, was an importer of surplus and other military firearms and imported this revolver after 1968, when the GCA began requiring importer stamps.

PS: As jmace points out, there appears to bean irregularity in the barrel. Whether that's just one of those well-known "non-bulge" wartime barrel mis-shapes or an actual issue deserves investigating.

Last edited by Absalom; 09-15-2017 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 09-15-2017, 11:29 AM
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SN 831xxx would make a fairly strong case for an October 1941 original shipment, and it is a pre-Victory British Service Revolver (BSR) aka a .38/200. With the import stamp, it would necessarily have been imported after GCA-1968 took effect. No way to tell where it came in from, it could be almost anywhere in the world. The barrel indeed appears bulged right above the extractor rod knob, probably the result of firing it with another bullet stuck in the barrel. S&W stopped using the Model of 1905 terminology just before WWI. Some collectors still use it. In that condition it's more of a curio than anything a military or S&W collector would be interested in.
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Old 09-15-2017, 12:12 PM
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Upon close inspection, I really see no markings whatsoever. As the finish is without a doubt the heavily worn-off original blue, that's a bit peculiar. No Enfield acceptance (which should be on the left frame of pre-Lend lease guns gone to Britain), no Canadian marks, no post-war proofs of any kind.

With the IACO stamp, it obviously went somewhere abroad. When you get a chance, please check the butt, backstrap, and right-side frame under the cylinder for any non-factory markings.
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Old 09-15-2017, 12:22 PM
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Nice wall hanger.

If someone put a new, period-correct barrel on it it would be (probably) safe to fire.

Without a new barrel, strictly a wall-hanger IMO.
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Old 09-15-2017, 12:26 PM
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Looks like a bulged barrel to me too. Still a good parts gun.
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Old 09-15-2017, 12:53 PM
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Hi Lorlei! Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! The BSR cylinders were often reamed to accept .38 Special. Can you see two shoulders when you look into the chambers? Or, just insert a .38 Special cartridge to see if it will fully insert. .38 Special can be shot if so but the cases will swell and may crack.
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Old 09-15-2017, 05:48 PM
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I'll check the chambers when I get back to the shop and I need to purchase some .38 special cartridges, I only have .38 at the moment. Thanks for the reply!
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Old 09-15-2017, 06:24 PM
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This cylinder has been modified to take the .38 special



that first line you see was for the .38SW. Since the .38 special is longer that second line shows how much longer and you can also see how much narrower the .38 special is between the lines.
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Old 09-15-2017, 07:05 PM
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Compare Mike's photo with this one. Unmodified. The difference should be quite obvious and make buying ammo just to check unnecessary.
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Old 09-15-2017, 07:46 PM
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And here is what can happen when you fire a .38 special in a modified .38SW cylinder (modified to accept the .38 special)

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Old 09-18-2017, 01:35 PM
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I'm not sure how I missed the top barrel stamp. Stamp reads Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass USA Patented FEB 6 06 SEPT 14 09, then the rest is too worn to read accurately but I believe the next starts with DEC. Cylinder is unmodified. I'm not finding any other numbers on the backstrap or significant markings.
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Old 09-18-2017, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorlei View Post
I'm not sure how I missed the top barrel stamp. Stamp reads Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass USA Patented FEB 6 06 SEPT 14 09, then the rest is too worn to read accurately but I believe the next starts with DEC. Cylinder is unmodified. I'm not finding any other numbers on the backstrap or significant markings.
The patent dates on the barrel are standard S&W factory stampings for that period and don't tell us anything about this specific gun.

The absence of any other markings, on the other hand, is quite odd, assuming the finish is original and there is no evidence of any stampings having been removed. I can't think of any circumstance where a BSR at that time would have made it out of the country (as evidenced by the IACO mark) without receiving any marks at all.
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Old 09-18-2017, 02:50 PM
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Looking at the pin on the left side above the grips, shouldn't that pin be proud? It appears to have been heavily polished before an old refinish. Pictures of the other side would help.
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Old 09-18-2017, 03:50 PM
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Here is an additional picture I have of the other side. It was intended for close up of the handle and screws.
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Old 09-18-2017, 03:53 PM
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Shouldn't a BSR have "Made in USA" stamp on the right side of the frame? I thought the "Made in USA" stamp started in the mid 1920s. Thoughts?

Steve
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Old 09-18-2017, 04:01 PM
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From the right side view, the fit of the sideplate just below the cylinder strongly suggests that the gun has been refinished. As to the possible bulge in the barrel, near the extractor rod lug, if you shine a light into the bore from the forcing cone end (with the cylinder swung open) and then look into the barrel from the muzzle, a bulge shows up as a dark area. Or, you can run a snug-fitting cleaning patch down the bore . If it feels peculiar when the patch is near the suspect area, that would indicate a bulge. If it is bulged, the gun is generally still safe to fire.

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Old 09-18-2017, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scha View Post
Shouldn't a BSR have "Made in USA" stamp on the right side of the frame? I thought the "Made in USA" stamp started in the mid 1920s. Thoughts?

Steve
And/or a logo on the sideplate? Were they cranking these out so fast for export that occasionally they were not stamped?
Okay one of the Victory experts, we need some guidance here.
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Old 09-18-2017, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
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Shouldn't a BSR have "Made in USA" stamp on the right side of the frame? I thought the "Made in USA" stamp started in the mid 1920s. Thoughts?
....
Yes, it should.

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And/or a logo on the sideplate? Were they cranking these out so fast for export that occasionally they were not stamped?
....
Yes, that too. And no, they did not.

This gun has obviously been completely "scrubbed" and refinished. By the looks of the finish a long time ago. So its history can no longer be reconstructed, but it went to the British Purchasing Commission and then someplace overseas.
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Old 09-19-2017, 12:10 PM
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Some of the BSRs were modified to take 38 Special by reaming oversize and then inserting a sleeve. I have one that dates from roughly 1941, but is also has the barrel shortened to 4" and a long foresight silver soldered to the barrel. This one is not treated that way, but may have been one sent to the Pacific (Australia or New Zealand) and refinished later in life. Some were sent directly and would not have the Enfield imprint for acceptance. Dave_n
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