Victory question

M_conrad_0311 · #1 09-24-2017, 11:36 PM

I was at a show today and ran across a man that had a victory model that was parkerized. How can one determine if one of these models has been refinished. This one has the wrong stocks, but I have the right ones and could use these on one of my other M&P revolvers. I do not think I will buy this one. When would have this one shipped? What would the value be? This man was asking a lot for this one, yet he did not know much about it. I asked him how he came to price this one at $800?, he replied "the internet". SN V134564

murphydog · #2 09-24-2017, 11:45 PM

This is a British Service Revolver in .38 S & W, not the US military 4" .38 Special. As you noted the stocks are incorrect, from the 1930 decade. Probably from late 1942 and it looks to have been refinished from the weak logo stamping on the side plate.

As such, it is perhaps a $300 gun, even though everything that you read on the Internet is true.

Absalom · #3 09-24-2017, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M_conrad_0311

I was at a show today and ran across a man that had a victory model that was parkerized. How can one determine if one of these models has been refinished. This one has the wrong stocks, but I have the right ones and could use these on one of my other M&P revolvers. I do not think I will buy this one. When would have this one shipped? What would the value be? This man was asking a lot for this one, yet he did not know much about it. I asked him how he came to price this one at $800?, he replied "the internet". SN V134564

That's about a $400 gun at most. It is an Australian-issue Victory, shipped there either directly or by way of Britain, under Lend-lease. The pre-Victory service stocks were probably switched around in Australia; happened a lot. Very few Aussie guns still have their original stocks. Australia started receiving BSR's in 1941, when they still had those stocks.

The gun was refinished at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory in New South Wales in the 50s; the year code will be on the right frame, but the picture is too indistinct for me to make it out. You can tell that it is a refinish by the FTR (Factory Thorough Repair) stamping on the right frame, as well as the fact that this finish looks quite different from an original Victory finish, duller and more blackish.

DWalt · #4 09-24-2017, 11:48 PM

V134564 would indicate a late 1942 shipment, well into the smooth wooden grips era. Except the 1930s grips on it are much more desirable than the originals. I would say it has been re-phosphated. $800 is a long way off what it's worth..

Absalom · #5 09-25-2017, 12:27 AM

Here are the stampings I'm talking about in a better picture from my Australian specimen. I see them all on your photo, but upon enlargement the contrasts are not sufficient to actually read the numbers.

The Lithgow refinish is thereby immediately identifiable. In contrast to the many commercially or privately refinished Victorys, these do retain collector value, since the refinish is part of their service history; no serious BSR collection would be complete without one.

However, strange as it may sound, one needs to watch out that the refinish is still "Lithgow-original", by checking that the FTR marks are stamped on top of the refinish (see picture). I have encountered two examples so far that had been re-refinished, likely after import back into the US.

murphydog · #6 09-25-2017, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absalom

That's about a $400 gun at most. It is an Australian-issue Victory, shipped there either directly or by way of Britain, under Lend-lease. The pre-Victory service stocks were probably switched around in Australia; happened a lot. Very few Aussie guns still have their original stocks. Australia started receiving BSR's in 1941, when they still had those stocks.

The gun was refinished at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory in New South Wales in the 50s; the year code will be on the right frame, but the picture is too indistinct for me to make it out. You can tell that it is a refinish by the FTR (Factory Thorough Repair) stamping on the right frame, as well as the fact that this finish looks quite different from an original Victory finish, duller and more blackish.

Geez, you can see all that in the photos? Will an eye transplant get me there?

Absalom · #7 09-25-2017, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murphydog

Geez, you can see all that in the photos? Will an eye transplant get me there?

I'm sure you've seen Jim's (Hondo44) posts about the .455. I'm shooting for being that guy for the Australian BSR's one day

M_conrad_0311 · #8 09-25-2017, 11:12 AM

Mike, thank you for the link. There was a lot of good information there.

Alan, I was in line with your thinking of $300, but I do not have enough experience to know just yet which ones may be a little harder to come by. I am with you on the eye transplantation.

Absalom, thank you for the identification tips. Should the logo be much more crisp? There were also some pretty good dings that were just covered up with the phosphate. Might this be common for this type of refinished? The refinish markings through the finish seems to be the best advice to help determine original refinish. Now, if I can just recall this good advice next time.

Absalom · #9 09-25-2017, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M_conrad_0311

.
Absalom, thank you for the identification tips. Should the logo be much more crisp? There were also some pretty good dings that were just covered up with the phosphate. Might this be common for this type of refinished?....

I'll believe you if you say the logo wasn't "crisp", although it's not possible to say anything about the logo from the photo; the shadows were too "flat" and the dull Australian finish tends to not make things stand out. Usually, they did minimal surface prep and stampings and the logo look almost pristine, which is why people unfamiliar with the original Victory finish frequently mistake it for original. That also explains those covered dings you talk about.

The appearance of the Australian finish is really obvious at first sight once you're familiar with it. The dull surface really contrasts with the ejector rod, hammer, and trigger, which they always left alone. I really don't have the eagle eyes Alan credits me with; I only saw the stampings because the finish made it obvious they'd be there

The two attached pictures aren't ideal because the angle and light weren't the same, but maybe you get an idea what I mean. The first is an Australian-refinished BSR, the second a standard 1944 British example with original Black Magic, which has much more of a reflective sheen to it.

cmansguns · #10 09-25-2017, 04:00 PM

Hello forum;

same subject (WWII Victory) but could use some clarity if the real experts here could comment. My Victory shipped to the US Navy in 1942 (s/n V 192216). It came to me missing the correct grips, lanyard ring and pin, and wearing some post war K frame targets.

The gun has been a very good shooter but to me not worth finding all correct vintage parts, or worth Lettering.

My question is the finish...mine is a rough "looking" appearance, not Parkerizing, but more of a muted & mottled non-glare black.

I had understood that S & W was enjoined by threat of lawsuit by Parker for not paying royalties for using their patented process. S & W invented their own proprietary process which was basically a black oxide phosphate hot blue that they then called Black Magic.

The OP's really looks like Parkerizing if compared to mine (sorry for crummy pics) but does anyone have the "real skinny" on S & W Black Magic? I had a Colt 1911 that was Colt's du-lite and it was even totally different than my Victory or any of my WWII true parkerized guns.

Absalom · #11 09-25-2017, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmansguns

.....
My question is the finish...mine is a rough "looking" appearance, not Parkerizing, but more of a muted & mottled non-glare black.

I had understood that S & W was enjoined by threat of lawsuit by Parker for not paying royalties for using their patented process. S & W invented their own proprietary process which was basically a black oxide phosphate hot blue that they then called Black Magic.

The OP's really looks like Parkerizing if compared to mine (sorry for crummy pics) but does anyone have the "real skinny" on S & W Black Magic? .....

Charlie:

First of all, on your Victory, based on the pictures and without being able to inspect it in person, I would hazard a guess of original Black Magic finish heavily weathered by environmental influences over time.

The question of the development of the Victory finish has been a murky and somewhat contentious one among collectors and researchers for some time. The story of the "proprietary phosphate finish" developed by S&W has been often repeated, including by me, but I and others have abandoned it for any lack of evidence so far that it actually ever existed.

The SCSW 4th ed. has also adopted this position. We know from available documents that the original polished Carbonia blue changed to a matte "brushed blue", and then to sandblast Black Magic oxide blue during the first half of 1942. In the summer of 1942 a little over 2000 guns, all DSC contract guns, none Navy, were actually "parkerized" in the narrow sense of the term, but for reasons not entirely clear, but likely related to patents and royalties, this was discontinued. The assumption is that the finish continued to be sandblast Black Magic until the end of production. Black Magic is also not S&W proprietary, but a trademark of Hubbard-Hall. S&W presumably used it under license.

Targets Guy · #12 09-25-2017, 06:42 PM

I reread the article in the summer journal about the wartime changes to the .38 M&P Model of 1905 change 4. In that report it talked about the beginning of the "V" prefix. In the paragraph labeled 6/1/42 it talked about the new numbering series started with the V in front of serial number. Up to V99999, complete stamping on butt was behind the lanyard swivel. From V100000 on the V was stamped in front of the lanyard swivel. V134564 in the OP must have slipped through the crack.

Absalom · #13 09-25-2017, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targets Guy

I reread the article in the summer journal about the wartime changes to the .38 M&P Model of 1905 change 4. In that report it talked about the beginning of the "V" prefix. In the paragraph labeled 6/1/42 it talked about the new numbering series started with the V in front of serial number. Up to V99999, complete stamping on butt was behind the lanyard swivel. From V100000 on the V was stamped in front of the lanyard swivel. V134564 in the OP must have slipped through the crack.

Yeah, I don't think that was implemented consistently for a while. I used to own V 121432, same thing.