32-20: A question of pedigree

TIMETRIPPER · #1 10-02-2017, 10:18 AM

Bought this well used 32-20 HE yesterday. Original nickel finish, round butt with after market pearl stocks, 5" barrel. Serial number 485xx with all parts matching.
Going by the SCSW and serial number, this gun is a 32-20 model 1905 3rd change. But, and here's the rub, there are no guide pins or holes in the cylinder or ejector star which is a characteristic of the 1st change 1905 30-20s. These earlier 1st change model serial numbers ranged from 22427-33500.

As you can see it's already been to the range and does well enough with 115 grain Lyman 3118 cast over 3.5 grains of Unique. At present it is soaking in a bath of Ed's Red, minus the pearls, which are in pretty good shape with no chips or scratches. There are no markings of any kind on the inside of the stocks. I figure they are after market because of the lack of S&W medallions.

There are no rework marking on the gun. There is an "N" stamped on the left bottom side of the grip frame. Cartridge stamp is the early "32 Winchester CTG". Latest patent date on top of the barrel is Feb 6, '06. There is a medium sized S&W logo on the side plate.

So... I'm stumped. What is it? 1st change, 3rd change, or?

John

DWalt · #2 10-02-2017, 10:44 AM

The closest I list to 485xx is 499xx which shipped in 2/11. About all I can say is what you already know, i.e., the book says it is a 1905 3rd change. But as it has a rounded butt, it is really a Model of 1902 4th change.

opoefc · #3 10-02-2017, 12:52 PM

Assuming it's a five screw, it's a Model 1905, 3rd change, which can be round or square butt frames. Square usually being for target versions, but not always. It appears to me that the gun is an example of frugal S&W using up old parts ( a cylinder) left over from the 1905, 1st change guns. The "old wives tale" of any round butt being a Model 1902 vs. a square butt always being a Model 1905, can get you confused, more often than correct. Ed.

DWalt · #4 10-02-2017, 01:30 PM

Regarding the difference between the Model of 1905 and the Model of 1902, the following covers it fairly thoroughly:
.38 Military Model 1902: The King of Revolvers : More pictures

Hondo44 · #5 10-04-2017, 08:41 PM

I agree with opoefc.

Very common for S&W to utilize old parts inventory in later model guns.

And don't be surprised to find a lower serial # 3rd change that does have a cyl with the alignment pin or pins!

jebstuart · #6 10-05-2017, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by opoefc

Assuming it's a five screw, it's a Model 1905, 3rd change, which can be round or square butt frames. Square usually being for target versions, but not always. It appears to me that the gun is an example of frugal S&W using up old parts ( a cylinder) left over from the 1905, 1st change guns. The "old wives tale" of any round butt being a Model 1902 vs. a square butt always being a Model 1905, can get you confused, more often than correct. Ed.

I can see it's a five screw; so what "opoefc" said is correct - for what that's worth. To me, five screws means 1905. Pre-five screw, four screws are not. You have a jewel there, congrats.

glowe · #7 10-05-2017, 09:41 AM

There was a long transition in the K frames in the early 1900s. If you compare the 38 Special calibered Military revolver to the 32 Winchester, you can see about a half-dozen changes that took place between 1906 and 1909. I say there was a transition, because not all the changes took place at once. Take a look at Roy & Robert's book on 1st Change & 2nd Change revolvers and you will note that there is no hard serial number breaks noted. Some of these changes have been seen on revolvers as early as 1906 on the 38 Military and those same changes took place on the 32 Winchester guns as well. There is some evidence that the 32 Winchester changes normally occurred later than those same changes made to the 38 Military, partially due to slow sales, so trying to decide whether you have a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Change gun can be difficult.

As for the old 1902 vs 1905 controversy, I go by the company's catalogs to identify these guns. It is obvious that these revolvers were simply called "Military", as in 38 Military, but they kept the Model 1902 & 1905 designations into the teens. Below are a few catalog pages through the early 1900s. Some will say that marketing made up their own names, but these designations lasted for almost 10 years without change. One thing for sure was that the Model 1902 & 1905 terms were used until the mid-teens and much more recently, experts made the decision to separate their models by certain changes made in the design of the revolvers over time. Those are, in my mind, much more arbitrary that original company documentation.

Sorry, I should have titled those images by year. In order: 1905 - 1907 - 1912 pg 36 - 1912 pg 37 - 1914

DWalt · #8 10-05-2017, 12:17 PM

As previously stated, the model "change" nomenclature is the creature of later S&W collectors, not S&W. And the "changes" referred to are imprecisely defined. There is no doubt that S&W made a formal distinction between the 1902 and the 1905 models based solely upon their grip shapes, at least until some time in the early WWI period when the 1902 and 1905 nomenclature for the K-frame revolvers was dropped by S&W in favor of using the "M&P" (either round butt or square butt) nomenclature. Some collectors persist in using the 1905 nomenclature as applicable to both round and square butt K-frame revolvers made until WWII despite the fact that S&W did not. And that's fine, so long as it is recognized as being a collector nomenclature convention which is at odds with S&W's factory catalog description practice.

TIMETRIPPER · #9 10-05-2017, 01:30 PM

Thanks for the wonderful information. I guess we might say that this old gun likes to buck the trend. Looking over those old ads that Gary posted, I'm perfectly happy with calling it a 1902 Military, if only to stir the pot and promote lively discourse at any gathering of S&W aficionados.

Thanks again for everyones input.

John

JP@AK · #10 10-05-2017, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

I should have titled those images by year. In order: 1905 - 1907 - 1912 pg 36 - 1912 pg 37 - 1914

Gary
What I find most interesting in your catalog pictures is that even in the earliest photo (1905) the cartridge mark on the barrel shows only the one cartridge - .38 S&W Special. No reference to U.S. Service CTG, even though we know that in 1905, this was still showing up, at least on some barrels.

DWalt · #11 10-05-2017, 03:57 PM

"No reference to U.S. Service CTG, even though we know that in 1905, this was still showing up, at least on some barrels. "

Definitely into the 1907-08 period, up to somewhere probably in the low 100000s SN range. It looks like the pictures in the 1905 catalog were also used in the 1907 and 1912 catalogs, and maybe even the 1914 catalog.

glowe · #12 10-05-2017, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP@AK

. . . What I find most interesting in your catalog pictures is that even in the earliest photo (1905) the cartridge mark on the barrel shows only the one cartridge - .38 S&W Special . . .

I have always thought the US Service Cartridge stamping was an acknowledgement that the revolver could shoot 38 Long Colt without actually stamping the word Colt on their S&Ws. If you recall Mike's Model 1899 thread shows almost half of all responses received have the "38 S&W Special Ctg." stamped on the old straight barrel Model 1899s. Roy also has a reference to these stampings for the original 38 Hand Ejector made 1905-1906. It states "Two types of cartridge stamps were used on the barrel. These were 38 S&W Special Ctg. and 38 S&W Special & U.S. Service Ctg."

I do not have any catalogs between 1914 and 1919, but by 1919, the catalogs were using new names for their K frame revolvers. Pages are below.