Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Smith & Wesson Revolvers > S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961
o

Notices

S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:53 PM
model3sw's Avatar
model3sw model3sw is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: South Florida, USA
Posts: 3,577
Likes: 7,970
Liked 4,671 Times in 1,606 Posts
Default 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp

On my .M&P .38 1902 1st change Target, the roll stamp on the barrel is unlike those previously and subsequently manufactured.

Serial number is: 623xx

On the left side of the barrel is a double line scroll bordered fore and aft by Maltese crosses as follows:

.38 S.&W. SPECIAL CTG. (top)
U.S. SERVICE CTG'S (centered beneath)

Right side of barrel is blank. This is a 100% matching numbered gun.

Who else has similar (or other equally as odd but different) barrel roll stamp on the 1902, 1902 1st change. to the 1905, 1905 1st change, 2nd change and 3rd change models ?

I do not recall encountering a roll stamp like this on an early M&P very many times in the past.

No, please don't ask for pictures. It a major pain to set up and spend time to take quality pictures. I only do that when I am making a "day" of it and I wouldn't take a pocket phone digital image.
__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-12-2017, 05:27 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
SWCA Member
38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pikeville, Tennessee
Posts: 6,025
Likes: 910
Liked 9,881 Times in 3,634 Posts
Default

Okay-----------------------

Model of 1902 Target, #21898---same as yours.

Model of 1902 First Change Target, #59794---same as yours.

Model of 1905 First Change Target, #116420---same as yours.

Model of 1905 Third Change Target, #238778---same as yours (except left side treats only with 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG).

All are numbers matching.

In the for what it's worth department, I have (32/20) Model of 1905 Second Change Target, #42094 similarly marked----caliber on left, nothing on right.

Later guns in both calibers are different (Smith & Wesson on left, caliber on right).

So--should I be trying to get my money back?

Ralph Tremaine

Last edited by rct269; 10-12-2017 at 05:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 10-12-2017, 06:28 PM
Absalom's Avatar
Absalom Absalom is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
Default

Ralph’s wordiness sometimes obscures the simple message:

Your barrel stamping is perfectly standard for the model for the first several years of production.

I think it went away sometime after 1906.

PS: Checked the SCSW. It’s of no help in narrowing down the end point. It catalogs the long stamp for the 1902, 1st chge (1903/04), and then no mention until the short “38 S&W Special CTG” for the 1905, 3rd chge (1909-15), so somewhere in-between.

Last edited by Absalom; 10-12-2017 at 06:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 10-12-2017, 07:14 PM
JP@AK's Avatar
JP@AK JP@AK is offline
US Veteran
38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 5,114
Liked 18,984 Times in 6,864 Posts
Default

The two line cartridge stamp does show up on some revolvers serialized and shipped later than 1906. My guess has always been that there were a bunch of the older barrels in the bin and they were used up until they were gone, even though new barrels had been forged with only the single line cartridge stamp.

The only restriction on this would be that barrels with the older and smaller thread area could not be fitted to the newer frames. But I've seen the two line cartridge stamp on the "flared" barrels and fitted to guns with serial numbers higher than one would expect from a 1906 revolver and designed for the enlarged barrel mating threads.
__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #5  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:19 PM
model3sw's Avatar
model3sw model3sw is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: South Florida, USA
Posts: 3,577
Likes: 7,970
Liked 4,671 Times in 1,606 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269 View Post
Okay-----------------------

Model of 1902 Target, #21898---same as yours.

Model of 1902 First Change Target, #59794---same as yours.

Model of 1905 First Change Target, #116420---same as yours.

Model of 1905 Third Change Target, #238778---same as yours (except left side treats only with 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG).

All are numbers matching.

In the for what it's worth department, I have (32/20) Model of 1905 Second Change Target, #42094 similarly marked----caliber on left, nothing on right.

Later guns in both calibers are different (Smith & Wesson on left, caliber on right).

So--should I be trying to get my money back?

Ralph Tremaine
Ralph,

I'll give you "your money back", as you ask ... that being ... what you paid for them when you purchased them new in the 1902 to 1920s time frame.

You're always a wonderful plethora or information and sometimes confusion, too, but you're the BEST !!
__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:40 PM
model3sw's Avatar
model3sw model3sw is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: South Florida, USA
Posts: 3,577
Likes: 7,970
Liked 4,671 Times in 1,606 Posts
Default

Oh, Ralph ... I see by your post it is OK to refer to THESE early M&Ps as:

"Model of 1902 Target", "Model of 1902 First Change Target", "Model of 1905 First Change Target" and "Model of 1905 Third Change Target".

I will sleep well tonight knowing I got the name / description of THIS type "Target" correct, per your exemplary reply.

(Ref: Our recent disagreement of terminology of "New Model 3 Target" for big bore New Model 3, factory target variations ).

In the words of Lou Costello ....

LOU: "I pick up the ball and throw it to first base and who gets it",
Response: Naturally.
LOU: So I pick up the ball and throw it to Naturally.
Response: NO, you pick up the ball and throw it to first base ... and who gets it.
LOU: Naturally.
Response: now you've got it
LOU: So I pick up the ball and throw it to Naturally ...
__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Last edited by model3sw; 10-12-2017 at 10:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:40 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
SWCA Member
38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pikeville, Tennessee
Posts: 6,025
Likes: 910
Liked 9,881 Times in 3,634 Posts
Wink MONKEY SEE, MONKEY DO!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by model3sw View Post
Oh, Ralph ... I see by your post it is OK to refer to THESE early M&Ps as:

"Model of 1902 Target", "Model of 1902 First Change Target", "Model of 1905 First Change Target" and "Model of 1905 Third Change Target".

I will sleep well tonight knowing I got the name / description of THIS type "Target" correct, per your exemplary reply.

(Ref: Our recent disagreement of terminology of "New Model 3 Target" for big bore New Model 3, factory target variations ).

In the words of Lou Costello ....

LOU: "I pick up the ball and throw it to first base and who gets it",
Response: Naturally.
LOU: So I pick up the ball and throw it to Naturally.
Response: NO, you pick up the ball and throw it to first base ... and who gets it.
LOU: Naturally.
Response: now you've got it
LOU: So I pick up the ball and throw it to Naturally ...
I figure it's okay to refer to them exactly as they are referred to in the several letters---this time, last time, and next time. Although with Don doing some of the letters now, you never know!

Ralph Tremaine
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 10-13-2017, 06:57 AM
bruce5781's Avatar
bruce5781 bruce5781 is offline
US Veteran
38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: East Texas
Posts: 2,017
Likes: 18,641
Liked 9,248 Times in 1,491 Posts
Default

1905 5" Target in the 58XXX range.

Sent from my SM-S975L using Tapatalk
__________________
Regards,
Bruce
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-13-2017, 08:17 AM
cmansguns's Avatar
cmansguns cmansguns is offline
US Veteran
38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Hanover, Virginia
Posts: 1,911
Likes: 3,164
Liked 5,636 Times in 1,398 Posts
Default

Bruce5781,

Do you mind posting more info on that gorgeous flap holster?

Is it (was it) commercially available in the early 1900 time frame? Are there any markings from the leather craftsman that put that beauty together?

I can almost picture a rig like that for my 1st Model (not Target) next time the old war guys meet at the range.

I like the old flap holsters but have not run across one like you have, especially with the basket weave.

Thanks in advance for any info
__________________
Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-13-2017, 08:42 AM
JSR III's Avatar
JSR III JSR III is offline
SWCA Member
38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 9,575
Likes: 3,695
Liked 8,924 Times in 3,545 Posts
Default

Quote:
No, please don't ask for pictures. It a major pain to set up and spend time to take quality pictures. I only do that when I am making a "day" of it and I wouldn't take a pocket phone digital image.
Sal, today's smart phone cameras take some of the best photos ever taken. I haven't used a digital camera for several years since I got into the IPhones. I can take a photo, take my charging cord and plug it into my phone and put the USB end into my laptop and transfer the photo to my PICTURES library. From there it is a simple matter to upload it into any post.

Remember that there is an old adage on the forum, "without photos it didn't happen"!!!!!!
__________________
James Redfield
LM #497
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 10-13-2017, 08:52 AM
bruce5781's Avatar
bruce5781 bruce5781 is offline
US Veteran
38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: East Texas
Posts: 2,017
Likes: 18,641
Liked 9,248 Times in 1,491 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSR III View Post
Sal, today's smart phone cameras take some of the best photos ever taken. I haven't used a digital camera for several years since I got into the IPhones. I can take a photo, take my charging cord and plug it into my phone and put the USB end into my laptop and transfer the photo to my PICTURES library. From there it is a simple matter to upload it into any post.

Remember that there is an old adage on the forum, "without photos it didn't happen"!!!!!!
The Tapatalk app makes it extremely easy to upload photos straight from your cell phone.

Sent from my SM-S975L using Tapatalk
__________________
Regards,
Bruce
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-13-2017, 09:31 AM
bruce5781's Avatar
bruce5781 bruce5781 is offline
US Veteran
38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: East Texas
Posts: 2,017
Likes: 18,641
Liked 9,248 Times in 1,491 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmansguns View Post
Bruce5781,

Do you mind posting more info on that gorgeous flap holster?

Is it (was it) commercially available in the early 1900 time frame? Are there any markings from the leather craftsman that put that beauty together?

I can almost picture a rig like that for my 1st Model (not Target) next time the old war guys meet at the range.

I like the old flap holsters but have not run across one like you have, especially with the basket weave.

Thanks in advance for any info
Charlie,
It is an old George Lawrence. I expect it would fit the early 1900's time frame. It is actually for a 6 or 6 1/2" gun, but when I got it, it had some sort of fabric stuffed in the toe so that it fit this 5" perfectly. I will dig it out this weekend and send you some additional photos.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #13  
Old 10-13-2017, 11:37 AM
Absalom's Avatar
Absalom Absalom is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce5781 View Post
The Tapatalk app makes it extremely easy to upload photos straight from your cell phone.

Sent from my SM-S975L using Tapatalk
You don’t even need tapatalk. I keep apps on my phone to an absolute minimum, so I just upload photos using the “Manage attachments” function directly from my phone’s photo library.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2213 roll stamp variations 5pectre Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols 3 11-17-2016 07:57 PM
Need rear sight height 38 hand ejector M 1902 target first change cab32 S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 3 10-17-2014 06:13 PM
WITHDRAWN WTS .38 M&P Model 1902 1st Change Target stu1ritter GUNS - For Sale or Trade 1 03-23-2014 01:08 PM
.32-20 HE Model 1902 1st change target~~new pics DWFAN S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 40 09-06-2008 02:25 AM
Model of 1902 1st change Target Square Butt Dan M S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 10 08-25-2008 06:42 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:59 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)