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Old 10-12-2017, 03:53 PM
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38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
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Default 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp

On my .M&P .38 1902 1st change Target, the roll stamp on the barrel is unlike those previously and subsequently manufactured.

Serial number is: 623xx

On the left side of the barrel is a double line scroll bordered fore and aft by Maltese crosses as follows:

.38 S.&W. SPECIAL CTG. (top)
U.S. SERVICE CTG'S (centered beneath)

Right side of barrel is blank. This is a 100% matching numbered gun.

Who else has similar (or other equally as odd but different) barrel roll stamp on the 1902, 1902 1st change. to the 1905, 1905 1st change, 2nd change and 3rd change models ?

I do not recall encountering a roll stamp like this on an early M&P very many times in the past.

No, please don't ask for pictures. It a major pain to set up and spend time to take quality pictures. I only do that when I am making a "day" of it and I wouldn't take a pocket phone digital image.
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Old 10-12-2017, 05:27 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
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38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
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Okay-----------------------

Model of 1902 Target, #21898---same as yours.

Model of 1902 First Change Target, #59794---same as yours.

Model of 1905 First Change Target, #116420---same as yours.

Model of 1905 Third Change Target, #238778---same as yours (except left side treats only with 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG).

All are numbers matching.

In the for what it's worth department, I have (32/20) Model of 1905 Second Change Target, #42094 similarly marked----caliber on left, nothing on right.

Later guns in both calibers are different (Smith & Wesson on left, caliber on right).

So--should I be trying to get my money back?

Ralph Tremaine

Last edited by rct269; 10-12-2017 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 10-12-2017, 06:28 PM
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38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
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Ralph’s wordiness sometimes obscures the simple message:

Your barrel stamping is perfectly standard for the model for the first several years of production.

I think it went away sometime after 1906.

PS: Checked the SCSW. It’s of no help in narrowing down the end point. It catalogs the long stamp for the 1902, 1st chge (1903/04), and then no mention until the short “38 S&W Special CTG” for the 1905, 3rd chge (1909-15), so somewhere in-between.

Last edited by Absalom; 10-12-2017 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:14 PM
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38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
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The two line cartridge stamp does show up on some revolvers serialized and shipped later than 1906. My guess has always been that there were a bunch of the older barrels in the bin and they were used up until they were gone, even though new barrels had been forged with only the single line cartridge stamp.

The only restriction on this would be that barrels with the older and smaller thread area could not be fitted to the newer frames. But I've seen the two line cartridge stamp on the "flared" barrels and fitted to guns with serial numbers higher than one would expect from a 1906 revolver and designed for the enlarged barrel mating threads.
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:19 PM
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38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269 View Post
Okay-----------------------

Model of 1902 Target, #21898---same as yours.

Model of 1902 First Change Target, #59794---same as yours.

Model of 1905 First Change Target, #116420---same as yours.

Model of 1905 Third Change Target, #238778---same as yours (except left side treats only with 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG).

All are numbers matching.

In the for what it's worth department, I have (32/20) Model of 1905 Second Change Target, #42094 similarly marked----caliber on left, nothing on right.

Later guns in both calibers are different (Smith & Wesson on left, caliber on right).

So--should I be trying to get my money back?

Ralph Tremaine
Ralph,

I'll give you "your money back", as you ask ... that being ... what you paid for them when you purchased them new in the 1902 to 1920s time frame.

You're always a wonderful plethora or information and sometimes confusion, too, but you're the BEST !!
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:40 PM
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38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
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Oh, Ralph ... I see by your post it is OK to refer to THESE early M&Ps as:

"Model of 1902 Target", "Model of 1902 First Change Target", "Model of 1905 First Change Target" and "Model of 1905 Third Change Target".

I will sleep well tonight knowing I got the name / description of THIS type "Target" correct, per your exemplary reply.

(Ref: Our recent disagreement of terminology of "New Model 3 Target" for big bore New Model 3, factory target variations ).

In the words of Lou Costello ....

LOU: "I pick up the ball and throw it to first base and who gets it",
Response: Naturally.
LOU: So I pick up the ball and throw it to Naturally.
Response: NO, you pick up the ball and throw it to first base ... and who gets it.
LOU: Naturally.
Response: now you've got it
LOU: So I pick up the ball and throw it to Naturally ...
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:40 PM
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38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by model3sw View Post
Oh, Ralph ... I see by your post it is OK to refer to THESE early M&Ps as:

"Model of 1902 Target", "Model of 1902 First Change Target", "Model of 1905 First Change Target" and "Model of 1905 Third Change Target".

I will sleep well tonight knowing I got the name / description of THIS type "Target" correct, per your exemplary reply.

(Ref: Our recent disagreement of terminology of "New Model 3 Target" for big bore New Model 3, factory target variations ).

In the words of Lou Costello ....

LOU: "I pick up the ball and throw it to first base and who gets it",
Response: Naturally.
LOU: So I pick up the ball and throw it to Naturally.
Response: NO, you pick up the ball and throw it to first base ... and who gets it.
LOU: Naturally.
Response: now you've got it
LOU: So I pick up the ball and throw it to Naturally ...
I figure it's okay to refer to them exactly as they are referred to in the several letters---this time, last time, and next time. Although with Don doing some of the letters now, you never know!

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 10-13-2017, 06:57 AM
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38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
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1905 5" Target in the 58XXX range.

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Old 10-13-2017, 08:17 AM
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38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
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Bruce5781,

Do you mind posting more info on that gorgeous flap holster?

Is it (was it) commercially available in the early 1900 time frame? Are there any markings from the leather craftsman that put that beauty together?

I can almost picture a rig like that for my 1st Model (not Target) next time the old war guys meet at the range.

I like the old flap holsters but have not run across one like you have, especially with the basket weave.

Thanks in advance for any info
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Old 10-13-2017, 08:42 AM
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38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
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Quote:
No, please don't ask for pictures. It a major pain to set up and spend time to take quality pictures. I only do that when I am making a "day" of it and I wouldn't take a pocket phone digital image.
Sal, today's smart phone cameras take some of the best photos ever taken. I haven't used a digital camera for several years since I got into the IPhones. I can take a photo, take my charging cord and plug it into my phone and put the USB end into my laptop and transfer the photo to my PICTURES library. From there it is a simple matter to upload it into any post.

Remember that there is an old adage on the forum, "without photos it didn't happen"!!!!!!
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Old 10-13-2017, 08:52 AM
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38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
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Quote:
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Sal, today's smart phone cameras take some of the best photos ever taken. I haven't used a digital camera for several years since I got into the IPhones. I can take a photo, take my charging cord and plug it into my phone and put the USB end into my laptop and transfer the photo to my PICTURES library. From there it is a simple matter to upload it into any post.

Remember that there is an old adage on the forum, "without photos it didn't happen"!!!!!!
The Tapatalk app makes it extremely easy to upload photos straight from your cell phone.

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Old 10-13-2017, 09:31 AM
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38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmansguns View Post
Bruce5781,

Do you mind posting more info on that gorgeous flap holster?

Is it (was it) commercially available in the early 1900 time frame? Are there any markings from the leather craftsman that put that beauty together?

I can almost picture a rig like that for my 1st Model (not Target) next time the old war guys meet at the range.

I like the old flap holsters but have not run across one like you have, especially with the basket weave.

Thanks in advance for any info
Charlie,
It is an old George Lawrence. I expect it would fit the early 1900's time frame. It is actually for a 6 or 6 1/2" gun, but when I got it, it had some sort of fabric stuffed in the toe so that it fit this 5" perfectly. I will dig it out this weekend and send you some additional photos.
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Old 10-13-2017, 11:37 AM
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38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp 38 M&P 1902, 1st change, Target with odd Roll Stamp  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce5781 View Post
The Tapatalk app makes it extremely easy to upload photos straight from your cell phone.

Sent from my SM-S975L using Tapatalk
You don’t even need tapatalk. I keep apps on my phone to an absolute minimum, so I just upload photos using the “Manage attachments” function directly from my phone’s photo library.
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