I picked-up this "no logo" HE this morning at a yard sale for $150.00. It had a set of aftermarket walnut target stocks on it.

Serial # 285088, they match where they should. Nickled with 6" barrel. .38 spl. '09 last patent date. 3rd or 4th change.

Nice and tight, very good bore. No buggered screws.

I'm just trying to pin down the year made, factory nickle or not, and what type of stocks were original to the gun.

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The finish looks factory to me; however, better pics would help!

As to age, I'll guess post WW I to mid 1922. Hard rubber grips would be likely.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Oh yea, I just bought an Elmo cookie jar at a yard sale for the grand kids.
My find beats your find hands down. Great snag. Looks nice. Seam looks tight and has that nickel look. Hammer and trigger are still case colored.
Grips are not a big problem.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

If the last patent date on the barrel is '09, it may have been an earlier (pre 1914) part that was assembled onto a later gun. Agree with the no logo time frame as Gil stated, likely after WW I and pre-1920. Enjoy!

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Probably shipped just after WWI. The gov't quit stamping the logo during the war and S&W didn't resume until 1922. SN's just over 300K were shipping in 1920. The grips you need are hard rubber.

BTW, that is a relatively uncommon round butt M&P revolver that appears to be in decent condition. Some purists might call it a Model 1902 but I think S&W was marketing it as a .38 Military & Police revolver at the time.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

This Change 3 is s/n 216902 and shipped in 10/1914. Stocks are matched to the revolver.

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

I figured it was around 1919 - 1920 due to some of the other serials i saw when I was looking for no logo examples.

Yeah, a round-butt 6" is sorta odd.

Here are some better pics, I just stuck a set on M10 RB stocks on it till I find a set of rubber ones.

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I love it. $150 at a flea market... obviously you are doing something right!

There's a set of K frame baked rubber grips on Ebay at this moment with a starting bid of around $60.

John

You know with that kind of prices for rubber grips, I think I'd put some Stags on it. There should be some Grashorns or Driskill's available.

Guy

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

There is a guy I know that has a lot of old S&W rubber grips. I'll check with him next weekend when i'm out that way and see what he has.

To be honest it's not all that important to me to where I'd even consider paying some eBay robber's price for a set of rubber grips.

The ones on it will serve till i run across something.

I could be wrong but I think what your calling rubber grips and what the others are talking about is two different things. The rubber grips would look like what came on this 1899.

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Get off my lawn!

I know. My .32-20 M1899 has a set on it.

Not sure where the 1922 comes in as related to the S&W logo?? I have the following No-Logo dates: 1916 to 1919. I have a 1920 and 1921 K frame revolvers and both have the logo stamp. My thoughts are that the factory would have wanted to return to using their logos as soon as the war was over. What is not so clear is why did the company stop stamping their guns? I have heard that the government was behind the change, but why?

To confuse the issue even more, looking at my I frames, there is a S&W logo on a 1917 22/32 HFT and I have three 455 S&Ws, all with logos and all were shipped in 1916. I also have a 1919 38 Perfected without a logo.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

A guy on anothe forum posted this one:



He had it lettered and it said:

"was shipped from the factory on December 4, 1920 for delivery to Belknap Hardware Co., Louisville, KY with 6" barrel, nickel finish & checkered walnut round butt grips."

Made me wonder if my example should not have walnut stocks instead of hard rubber.

The closest SN I have listed to 285088 is 2853xx which shipped in 10/17. It would not have the S&W frame logo at that time. Original grips would probably have been the black hard rubber style, although it is possible it could have been shipped with checkered wood grips with the "Deep Dish" gold medallions. Originals and reproductions of the black hard rubber grips are not difficult to find.

Round butt K frame walnut service stocks from that era are hard to find. I have a feeling that only a small percentage of K frames from the teens went out with wood. Here are a couple examples of what you should be looking for if you want walnut.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

You're right, by ~1920 the logos were stamped again. A gun form 1917 with a logo was probably from inventory and produced before OUR ENTRY into the war.

All 455s had logos.

The Government ruled out stamping the logo on 1917s because it slowed production. After the war it took Smith a couple of years to work it back into production. Just like the bright blue finish took up to 10 years to again become the standard finish on all blue models

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I have #207xxx. It has logo on the sideplate, and walnut service grips with gold medallion. I haven't lettered it to get a solid ship date or confirmation of the grips.

1922 may be in peoples' minds as the year of the change from the "mushroom" to the "barrel" extractor rod end...

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

May 1922 is when the MADE IN USA stamp was ordered.

Mushroom know was ordered replaced with the barrel knob was 1/22/27.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Just for a point of reference SN 313625 (4" Nickel) has no logo and has the walnut stocks with gold medallions. No numbers found on the inside of the stocks, but with the perfect fit and wear, I am positive they are original.

Mine has not been lettered but my notes have 9/1919 as when the heat treatment of the cylinders started with SN 316648 - but, of course, that range of SN's may have shipped much later that that.

Rick

Rick,

Searching for the stock # is easier in bright sunlight with a 5 power glass.
Sometimes a photo is needed to “see” the penciled #. Finding the serial number is made much easier using The Gimps threshold tool.

SMITH & WESSON DA 45 MODEL 1917 COMMERCIAL

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim,
Any idea when the rear sight changed from the older round divot to the square cut type?

John

Hi John,

Aug. 14, 1923 change order: square sights on all .32 HE. .38/32 HE, .38 HE, .32 HE Winchester regular [non-target] revolvers.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

That's it Jim. Thank you.

DWalt, this is what I was rather poorly trying to describe. Both HEs are 1905 M&P 4th, 38 Special guns.



John

"Flat rear sight/top strap introduced at SN 406301 in April 1922" for the .38 M&P
I can't recall where I got this info, but I would go with what Jim said.

I may! You may have gotten it here on the forum or right from the source; S&W 1857 to 1945, page 136: April 1, 1922 change to square front sight, replace U notch with sq notch, and flatten top strap at #406,301 on .38 HE M&P Model 1905 Fourth Change.

The Aug 14, 1923 date and information I quoted in my post above also came from S&W 1857 to 1945, Eng Changes page 235.

So obviously there is a contradiction in the book, but your reference that I quoted from the book in my first sentence of this post is clearly more specific about the change. Therefore I’m inclined to go with your date.

Thank you for that input!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

That is one cool old 38 m&p and what a great deal ,please please at least consider some Patrick Grashorn stags for it he makes a beautiful product .Are you going to do some shooting it if so post us a report on that ,thanks for posting kinda got my heart rate up this am.