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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 10-15-2017, 05:17 PM
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Default Value 1/1000 S&W .38 1st Model 1899 M&P

I know this all correct Model 1899 was 1/1000 revolvers submitted to an Army trial board but was rejected by Army in favor of the Colt model. Was hopping experts would advise as to value. SN 13670. Excellent condition.
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Old 10-15-2017, 05:23 PM
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NICE!

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Old 10-15-2017, 05:23 PM
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Old 10-15-2017, 05:33 PM
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They were not submitted to a trial board. They were purchased by the Army.
It appears to have been reamed to accept 38 Special ammo. That is seen fairly often.
They were originally chambered in 38 Long Colt, which does not let a 38 Special seat fully.
Have you tried a 38 Spec in it?
If reamed, it should still bring $1000-1200.
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Old 10-15-2017, 07:49 PM
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13245 shipped on 1/2/01 and is definitely a U. S. Army purchase. The barrel caliber stamping should be "S&W 38 MIL".

Both S&W and Colt submitted heavy-frame .45 revolvers to the Army's 1907 pistol and revolver trials. Colt won (and their revolver was adopted as the Model 1909) and used for Philippine service. S&W lost. That may be what you are referring to.
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Old 10-15-2017, 08:31 PM
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You can tell it was accepted, not rejected, by the Army Ordnance inspector stamp: K.S.M., Kelley S. Morse, who was on duty for over 20 years.

Good pictures. I was not aware that these had the inspector initials on the cylinder face.
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Old 10-15-2017, 10:57 PM
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Very nice revolver.
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Old 10-16-2017, 07:13 AM
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JTT was John T Thompson, inventor of the Thompson submachine gun.
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Old 10-16-2017, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muley Gil View Post
JTT was John T Thompson, inventor of the Thompson submachine gun.
Wow, good catch. I didn’t look at both panel photos. One grip panel is a mis-match, presumably the JTT one since KSM is on the cylinder.

Would this be explainable on an all-original, or have been switched later? Personally, it would make the gun more attractive to me, but does this affect collector value? I don’t know enough about the market for these.
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Old 10-16-2017, 12:26 PM
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Here's a comparable with somewhat better wood and finish preservation from a four-year old auction.

http://www.rockislandauction.com/det...evolver#detail

And here's some basic info from the Springfield Armory collection

Springfield Armory Museum - Collection Record,
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Old 10-16-2017, 12:40 PM
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Interesting. So these both also have one stock each with KSM and JTT. Seems to have been standard. No explanation, though. Is there anything in the SCSW? I can’t get to mine right now.

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Old 10-16-2017, 12:47 PM
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• U.S. Army Model: Cal .38 Long Colt with 6” barrel, 1,000 marked “U.S. ARMY MODEL 1899” on the butt. Army Issue has the inspectors initials in the grip circles, KSM on the right side (for Kelly S. Morse) and JTT (for John T. Th ompson), on the left side) with lanyard ring. S&W serial number range 13001-14000, Circa 1901. About $2,500 in Exc. condition.

(SCSW, 4th Ed., Page 161).
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Old 10-16-2017, 01:20 PM
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Default S&W M1899 USN

This little lady has been passed down from my great grandfather. # 595x beautiful USN and anchor markings on butt, also CAB 918. He was a Lt. in pre WW1 US Cavalry (I also have his 1906 saber). Curious how a Calvary Lt. would have a Navy revolver?
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Old 10-16-2017, 06:43 PM
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Thanks for the SCSW info, Guy!

So, does anyone have the story? Since KSM got his initials on the frame and cylinder, I would presume his subordinates to be the ones actually doing the inspecting on these revolvers. How did JTT get himself immortalized on one grip panel, with initials and year? At the time, he wasn’t quite the famous guy he became later.
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Old 10-16-2017, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
Thanks for the SCSW info, Guy!

So, does anyone have the story? Since KSM got his initials on the frame and cylinder, I would presume his subordinates to be the ones actually doing the inspecting on these revolvers. How did JTT get himself immortalized on one grip panel, with initials and year? At the time, he wasn’t quite the famous guy he became later.
I believe he was an ordnance inspector at the time.

I checked wikipedia and Thompson graduated from West Point in 1882 and was assigned to Ordnance in 1890. He stayed there until retirement in 1914.
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Old 10-16-2017, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muley Gil View Post
I believe he was an ordnance inspector at the time.

I checked wikipedia and Thompson graduated from West Point in 1882 and was assigned to Ordnance in 1890. He stayed there until retirement in 1914.
I know, I got that too and quite a bit more from various pages dedicated to him.

Kelley S. Morse's tenure as inspector at Army Ordnance overlapped Thompson's. 1893 to 1915.

Still does not explain the elaborate carved round top with JTT, only one half, on guns apparently inspected by Morse's people.
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Old 10-16-2017, 11:07 PM
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Default My input....

I recently purchased this fine example of an 1899 ARMY with S/N 13133 from a dealer in the Seattle area. I paid $1,400 for mine and I feel like I got a heck of a good deal on it! You can see the original finish is in exceptionally clean condition and it has NOT been modified in any way/shape/form.
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Old 10-16-2017, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handejector View Post
They were not submitted to a trial board. They were purchased by the Army.
It appears to have been reamed to accept 38 Special ammo. That is seen fairly often.
They were originally chambered in 38 Long Colt, which does not let a 38 Special seat fully.
Have you tried a 38 Spec in it?
If reamed, it should still bring $1000-1200.
Lee, I learned something new. All these years I though the .38 Military, .38 Special and .38 Long Colt were interchangeable. Thank you.

How about the chambering / caliber of the 1899 Navy and the 1902 Navy ?
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Old 10-16-2017, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THREEDFLYER View Post
I recently purchased this fine example of an 1899 ARMY with S/N 13133 from a dealer in the Seattle area. I paid $1,400 for mine and I feel like I got a heck of a good deal on it! You can see the original finish is in exceptionally clean condition and it has NOT been modified in any way/shape/form.
That's really excellent shape. They hardly ever surface in better than 80% condition and usually MUCH worse.
You STOLE it for $1400. Very nice find.

After all my years I found the three from one seller in 1995. A 1899 Army, 1899 Navy and 1902 Navy, having to settle for 80% or a bit better.

If anyone ever needs I came upon a set of 1901 JTT / K.S.M stocks that are stone cold new, about 20 years ago.

I bought them "just in case" but you'd need an awfully nice gun to attach the "like new" stocks on. Try to find a set if you needed them, was my logic.
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Last edited by model3sw; 10-16-2017 at 11:47 PM. Reason: correction
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Old 10-16-2017, 11:36 PM
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I am picking up a Model 1902 Navy soon from another member but as almost always the case the Navy guns are usually pretty beat up. I am told that they were stored in a bucket on top of each other. The sailors supposedly grabbed one out of the bucket on the way to their stations and dropped them back in the bucket at the end of their shift.
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Old 10-17-2017, 01:30 AM
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According to Charle Pate, at least 500 of the Navy version (he does not specify whether from the 1,000 Model 1899 or the 1,025 Model 1902 variants) were transferred to Britain pre-Lend-Lease. There went at least 25% of the collectable potential! Pate has a detail photo of what seems to be one with post-war commercial proofs, but I don’t think a lot made it back here.
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Old 10-17-2017, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handejector View Post
.....
It appears to have been reamed to accept 38 Special ammo. That is seen fairly often.
They were originally chambered in 38 Long Colt, which does not let a 38 Special seat fully.
Have you tried a 38 Spec in it?
If reamed, it should still bring $1000-1200.
I don’t have experience with the 38 MIL marked S&W revolvers; did those actually have shoulders corresponding to the shorter .38 LC case length?

The reason I’m asking is that none of the Colts in .38 LC did. The US Army and Navy models were bored straight through, and you can load one with a .38 Special with no problem; no reaming necessary.

In fact, under the threat from S&W’s competition, Colt tightened the barrel diameter from .360 to .358 to accommodate the .38 Special accuracy-wise and began advertising their civilian New Army and Navy models as being capable of firing both .38 LC and Special. It was also part of the sales pitch to get the military to stick with the Colt and approve the next iteration, the Model 1903.

That’s what makes the old Colts a bit dangerous. You can stick a flat-nosed .357 in and get it to fire. Probably only once.
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:11 AM
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This is an interesting thread thanks for posting that fine old historically significant revolver.Threedflyer wow what a nice example also.
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
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I don’t have experience with the 38 MIL marked S&W revolvers; did those actually have shoulders corresponding to the shorter .38 LC case length?
Yes, the military 1899 & 1902 S&W's did have shoulders to prevent loading the longer special cartridge. Their barrels are thus sometimes marked "S&W 38 Mil". My 1899 Navy does not have a barrel marking re cartridge, but it is 38 LC and will not chamber a 38 special.
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:52 AM
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"The reason I’m asking is that none of the Colts in .38 LC did. The US Army and Navy models were bored straight through, and you can load one with a .38 Special with no problem; no reaming necessary."

Until the 1903 variation of the Colt A&N, the chambers were bored straight through end-to-end, and the barrel was 0.362". And .38 Special rounds would fit and could be fired, the only drawback being the oversized bore. I have seen stories that even a .357 Magnum round could fit into the early Colt A&N chambers. That is something I would never try shooting in any of the old Colts.
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