Am curious if this abused old gal has any value anymore...and about how old is it? This was given to me by an old old man. It was in a shoe box full of mouse nests and dirt, obviously stored a long time. This piece was completely taken apart, every screw, pin; spring, completely apart. As one photo (sorry they are poor but so is my cheap camera) shows, there is serious pitting on the grip frame under the grips, otherwise it's fairly decent, some dings and scratches. Surprise surprise, all the pieces were still there. I put it together and it functions quite well, accuracy is decent tho it definately shoots high, you need a good 6 O'clock hold. All matches, serial # C637xx. On the flat beneath the bbl. is C.A.I. ST. ALB. V

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I think the SN puts it around '49 but the grips are newer. I'd say $2-300.
The experts will be along to narrow the date down for you.

__________________
Mike, AmVets Member, Navy Vet

C637xx would date its shipment to around late 1949. If it's shootable, it has some value, just not a whole lot. A few hundred.

Hey, a few hundred sure beats free!

also, C.A.I. ST. ALB. V is Century Arms in Vermont, interesting that the gun was imported.. they've been importing weapons since the early 1960's not sure when the ATF required the stamping

GCA-1968 required gun importers to stamp their name and location on imported guns. Probably a police gun from somewhere in the world, and of course the importation would have been no earlier than GCA-1968's effective date (after 1968).

Ha! Caught ya! That does not happen often. The importers' stamps were first required as part of the regulations implementing President Regan's Gun Owner's Protection (GOP) law which allowed importing surplus for the first time since 1968. While the GOP law took effect in 1986 ATF drug their feet and stalled distribution of the first imports into 1987. The following years were surplus heaven.

Actually that's "FOPA".

I still have mixed feelings about that law with regards to FFLs.

Before FOPA, you pretty much had to have a real commercial business location to get an FFL, and transfers could only take place at the licensed premises.

Lifting those restrictions drove a lot of small LGS out of business. Distributors could then sell at shows, and undercut mom & pop. Plus it turned what used to be fun, laid-back gun shows in to commercialized tent sales dominated by row upon row of the same ****.

Sorry, way off topic:-)

It's still good as a fun shooter. I love the old speed hammers.

An important clarification. FOPA wasn't a stand-alone law, but was a bunch of amendments to the Gun Control Act of 1968, so technically it's not wrong to say that the GCA required the importer marks. But 18 years are not insignificant, and I've been sloppy about that too.

Anyone know where to find the actual source of the initial regulations about importer markings?

The only place the import markings required are specifically mentioned is here:

Title 27 - Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms
Chapter I - BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS, DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
Subchapter M - ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND OTHER EXCISE TAXES
Part 178 - COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION
Subpart F - Conduct of Business
Section 178.92 - How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?
(a)
(1)Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:
(i) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and
(ii) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:
(A) The model, if such designation has been made;
(B) The caliber or gauge;
(C) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer;
(D) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business; and
(E) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.

Now, 27 CFR Section 178.92 (above) is the current BATFE regulation. As such, it has been amended several times, and I have no way to know when it was originally promulgated or what it specified about import markings (if anything) at that time. And indeed it addresses the enforcement of GCA-1968, in its present amended form. One would have to go back to an old source to see what 27 CFR 178.92 originally said. BTW, FOPA makes no mention whatsoever of importer marking requirements.

Yep, that’s why I’d like to see the source. By default, it HAS to be in the FOPA administrative rules, since the original GCA specifically excludes surplus military arms from importation, and even from the exceptions the Secretary of the Treasury was allowed to grant. So no imported guns, no rules about markings, obviously, until FOPA changed that.

I found a reference to a court case Century brought, pertaining to a shipment of surplus police guns just like the one in this thread. They had brought the guns into the country on a valid import license from BATF, but the guns hadn’t been released from the bonded gov’t warehouse yet when the GCA was passed. Century lost the guns and the subsequent court case. Or rather, I suppose they disposed of them elsewhere in the world.

The pertinent parts of FOPA (with no mention of import markings):

SEC. 105. AMENDMENTS TO SECTION 925.
Section 925 of title 18, United States Code, is amended—
(2) in subsection (d)—
(A) by striking out "may authorize" and inserting in lieu thereof "shall authorize";
(B) by striking out "the person importing or bringing in the firearm or ammunition establishes to the satisfaction of the Secretary that";
(C) in paragraph (3), by inserting before the semicolon ", except in any case where the Secretary has not authorized the importation of the firearm pursuant to this paragraph, it shall be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if assembled";
and
(D) by striking out "may permit" and inserting in lieu thereof "shall permit". (see below)
---------------------
(d) The Attorney General shall authorize a firearm or ammunition to be imported or brought into the United States or any possession thereof if the firearm or ammunition—
(1) is being imported or brought in for scientific or research purposes, or is for use in connection with competition or training pursuant to chapter 401 of title 10;
(2) is an unserviceable firearm, other than a machine gun as defined in section 5845(b) of the
Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (not readily restorable to firing condition), imported or brought in as a curio or museum piece;
(3) is of a type that does not fall within the definition of a firearm as defined in section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 and is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes, excluding surplus military firearms, except in any case where the Attorney General has not authorized the importation of the firearm pursuant to this paragraph, it shall be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if assembled; or
(4) was previously taken out of the United States or a possession by the person who is bringing in the firearm or ammunition.
The Attorney General shall permit the conditional importation or bringing in of a firearm or ammunition for examination and testing in connection with the making of a determination as
to whether the importation or bringing in of such firearm or ammunition will be allowed under this subsection.
(e) Notwithstanding any other provision of this title, the Attorney General shall authorize the importation of, by any licensed importer, the following:
(1) All rifles and shotguns listed as curios or relics by the Attorney General pursuant to
section 921(a)(13), and
(2) All handguns, listed as curios or relics by the Attorney General pursuant to section 921(a)(13), provided that such handguns are generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.



As FOPA is basically an amendment to GCA-1968 it would probably have no separate specific administrative rules.

This might be old news to you two but I can add that the post FOPA surplus guns I bought earlier had the stamp in less offensive locations than the ones bought more recently. As examples, my SMLE No. 4 MK II was stamped on the bottom of the barrel and my more recently imported Swiss K31 Schmidt-Rubins are stamped on the side of the receiver.

The SMLE No. 4 MKIIs were sold covered with cosmoline and wrapped in a wax paper cocoon. The cocoon only had a small tear to expose the bottom of the barrel just behind the muzzle where the importer made the required stamp. The original serial number and butt length were on the outside label. I wonder which number went on the 4473. They were $169 plus tax.

Indeed, for reasons unknown to me, and for which I have not found even an attempt to explain, the requirements became more “conspicuous” effective in 2002 (see DWalt’s post #10).

In the old days, some importers were sensitive enough toward collector aesthetics to hide the stamps on the barrel underneath the ejector rod or inside the frame, so they were invisible unless you opened the cylinder. Of course, others weren’t. But that wouldn’t be legal nowadays.

There is a lengthy discussion in the Federal Register about the reasons for the 0.003" depth and the 1/16" height. Initially, BATFE proposed a 0.005" depth and a 3/32" height. But apparently numerous manufacturers expressed that it was impractical with the stamping equipment they had.