I've seen several posts referring to .38/44 HDs and Outdoorsman that have been converted to .357. What is the process for modifying the .38 Spl to .357, and how can you tell if it's been made to a particular revolver? Thanks.

The individual chambers in the cylinder were reamed to 357 Mag depth. You can tell by inserting a 357 Mag cartridge in the chambers of your HD or Outdoorsman. If it doesn't fit your gun has not be modified/converted. If the 357 Mag drops in your gun has been screwed with.

Dave

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RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

Working backwards, you can tell it's been made if the "shoulders" in the chambers are 1/10" closer to the front of the cylinder than they were when they were born. To simplify your life and the measuring process, if a .357 cartridge fits in the chamber-----------it's been done.

Whether it's been correctly or not is best left for a time when divergent opinions can be argued-----not that they will be resolved. To the best of my knowledge, S&W has seen fit to use recessed chambers for .357's since the get-go---as a safety measure. Others, Ruger for example, never has used them (I think.).

All this recessed chamber business started back in the 20's, I believe. Remington (??) came out with a hot rod .22 Long Rifle cartridge. The increased pressures developed by the load (combined with one other factor) caused the cartridge rim to rupture---and hot brass particles found their way into flesh. Folks went to work to solve/mitigate the problem. S&W decided to mitigate the problem with recessed chambers---and the Straight Line Single Shot became the first handgun to sport such. Remington, on the other hand, chose to try to prevent the problem from arising in the first place. They succeeded by making their cartridge cases out of better/stronger material. S&W succeeded (mostly) in making their recessed chamber arms more difficult to clean easily/properly.

I could go on, but that's probably enough to get the ball rolling.

Ralph Tremaine

Okay, now you see what I meant by divergent opinions. Dave opines such alterations as being "screwed with". I usually say "messed with", but close enough. Others may note such messing with as an improvement---citing the ability to now use .38. Special ammo AND .357 ammo in the same gun. And that's a fact---both can be used----if you don't care about accuracy---and excessive cleaning requirements.

I wonder what chapter next will be.

Ralph Tremaine

It is not unusual to find .38/44s with deeper (.357) chambers as an owner "improvement." With today's ammunition, recessing chambers to accept case rims is unnecessary and is perfectly safe. I have a re-chambered early 1950s .38/44 HD, and it seems to work fine, even though I shoot a lot more .38 Special ammunition than .357. My personal belief that if it is not a high-condition collector grade gun, elongating a .38/44s chambers for a shooter has no effect upon its value. While some may be concerned about the safety of firing a .357 Magnum in a .38 Special chamber, remember that there is a lot more steel around the chambers of an N-frame than a K-frame.

My personal favorite revolver is a 6" Colt .357. It groups as well as any other revolver I own using either .357 or .38 Special loads. I always clean chambers with a brass brush and have never had any problem with crud buildup ahead of .38 Special cases causing sticking of .357 cases.

I reamed the chambers of my .44 Russian to shoot .44 Specials --


Exterior mods also DIY ----->

Okay---chapter next is this 6" Colt .357---which groups as well as any other revolver DWalt owns-----with either .38 Special or .357. I'm going to guess it shoots as well with either with DWalt holding it.

Try it with a rest---a machine rest. You can get one from Brownells for next to nothing---next to nothing compared to what we spend for our guns. I'm going to suggest you will discover an entirely new definition of accuracy. You will also discover how much we mess things up by holding onto our guns with our hands. Have you ever shot a ragged one hole group holding your gun in your hands----one hand or two---with or without a rest (for your hands)---at a meaningful distance (25-50 yards)? Me neither!! But more than a few of your guns will do that----if you're not holding them.

A word of caution: While the discovery of such accuracy is more than enlightening, take care the search doesn't become obsessive. That can take you down the path to a rubber room.

Ralph Tremaine

Now that's IMPRESSIVE!!----the "exterior mods". My hat's off to you, Sir!!

Ralph Tremaine

My comment above was based on the following reasoning. You can load 38 Special cases to the performance level of the original 38/44s and have near Magnum results (158g @ 1100+). That is shooting the gun as designed and intended by S&W in 1930. Reaming the chambers to get another 100 fps is, in my opinion, screwing with the design and intent of the original revolver. YMMV!

Dave

__________________
RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

Does anyone know if there was ever any difference in how S&W heat treated the cylinders of their various 38-44 revolvers and their 357 revolvers?

And do you shoot handloads only and use black powder?

I hope to gosh that no one ever buys that gun and fires a .44 Special Keith handload in it!

I guess you made that change to get .44 Special brass because .44 Russian was unobtainable and you wanted to shoot that antique gun?

"Try it with a rest---a machine rest. You can get one from Brownells for next to nothing---next to nothing compared to what we spend for our guns. I'm going to suggest you will discover an entirely new definition of accuracy. You will also discover how much we mess things up by holding onto our guns with our hands. Have you ever shot a ragged one hole group holding your gun in your hands----one hand or two---with or without a rest (for your hands)---at a meaningful distance (25-50 yards)?"

Having been a handgun shooter for over 50 years, and a competitive bullseye shooter for over 25 years, and knowing more than a little about testing grouping capabilities of both precision long guns and handguns, I will certainly consider your sage advice.

A-HA! FINALLY, the pertinent question here.

And S&W used to advertise that they used a special alloy steel in chrome and nickle additions to the basic ordnance metal and heat treated for .357 pressures.

Look at the original prices of the guns when they were produced. I think a lot of that difference was in the superior steel used in the Magnum and the extra heat treatments.

And That, lads and lassies, is why I won't convert a .38-44!

Such a conversion voids any warranty, too.

I would never convert my pre-war .38/44 but because y'all are discussing this I have to ask - how much pressure is too much before the .357 conversion blows that .38/44 sky high?

Well, we are talking about HANDGUNS specifically designed to be shot whilst being held in the shooter's hands. I think there has never been an argument that a rest will rip all of the accuracy out of a gun that you will never see when it is handheld. Especially at 25 yards. But you have to decide which is important, the inherent incredible accuracy of the gun or your ability to use the gun accurately regardless of the fact that you cannot mimic Ransom rest type of accuracy.

I think and hope that you're being sarcastic here.

YES, I've shot ragged one-hole groups at 25 yards from OFFHAND with a number of handguns, and I am not an especially renowned marksman.

In the field, if you can sit and fire from the two-handed position, your groups will be even better. No one carries a Ransom Rest in the field. But men like Keith, Cooper, Askins and Brian Pearce all could shoot a lot better than I think most of those Johnnies who set their indoor targets at five yards can grasp.

I have fired groups that I felt were just routine at 25 yards and more that astonished some new shooters.

%%%%%%%%%%

I'd been shooting factory .44 Russian which was hard to get. Checked & found .44 Special same ballistics, so reamed the cylinder & shoot Specials. Haven't shot it much but I have a letter from S&W saying OK to shoot factory loaded smokless ----->

I converted my $300 Highway Patrolman in 357 to a 38-44, by shooting hot 38 Specials out of it. I wanted to see what the old 38-44 was like but I could not afford one. I have since converted my gun back to 357.

• Heat treatment was eliminated by order Oct. 12, 1945 for cylinders on the .22 & .32 ‘I’ frames, K22, K32 & K38, and the 44 & 45 N frames, S&W 1857 – 1945. The 38 N frame is not specifically listed. This likely means that 38/44s retained heat treated cyls, initiated on all model HEs by 1921 and continued thereafter until the 1945 change. And the .357 continued to have heat treatment as well as all subsequent magnum cartridge models. May be cost cutting, improved metallurgy, or more probably, both.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Hawg Rider:
At least thirty years ago, a friend worked his day job as a pistol smith at the Rock Island Arsenal. On one of his trips to Smith & Wesson for job-related training, he happened to take along a post-WWII .38-44 Heavy Duty revolver. He didn't mention which specific post-war variation. As part of his training, his class was given a tour of S&W's repair and service operation. One worker saw his .38-44 and asked to examine it. Bob handed it to the worker, who carefully looked it over, and then went to a reference book and checked the revolver's serial number with data in that book. The worker returned to Bob and asked whether he would like to have that revolver's chambers extended to accept .357 Magnum cartridges. Bob accepted the offer; the worker told him to return to the service shop after his training sessions had ended. Bob left the revolver with that worker, resumed his tour, finished his several days of refresher and new-product training, and picked up his factory-modified .38-44. My guess that there are probably other Heavy Duties out there that could tell a similar story if only each could speak. I have no idea what happened to that particular Heavy Duty and Bob died too young, too many years ago.

This from a somewhat unlikely source----the S&W HISTORICAL FOUNDATION

On February 9, 1934, one Arthur Jefcoat of Cottonwood, California ordered a pair of Outdoorsman revolvers---a pair I refer to as a big one and a little one (a 38/44 and a .22 Long Rifle)--and he wanted them with "light trigger pulls to match". To get ahead of myself, he was charged $44.50 for the big one, and $37.25 for the little one (less 10% on the big one---NRA Member discount)---and got his matched "light trigger pulls" at no extra charge. Note the NRA Member discount was applicable to only one gun on multiple gun orders.

Arthur was an engineer type, and pestered the S&W folks with questions on several topics---one of which was heat treating. He started off asking about heat treating on the .22---noting the S&W catalog said the "nickel steel" cylinders were not treated, and their circular on the K-22 which said they were. (Sounds like the Advertising Department might have had a little quality control problem.)

S&W rolled out a big gun to deal with Arthur---his inquiries being responded to by D.B. Wesson----hisself! Here's what D.B. had to say: "The steel used in the cylinder of the K-22 is identical in formula with that used in the larger calibres (sic), but it is not heat treated after machining as the great thickness of the cylinder walls do not demand any further strengthening. As a matter of fact, even in our larger calibres (sic) the steel as it comes from the mill shows a tensile strength of 80,000 lbs., which does not make the additional strength gained by treating a necessity, but we do very much prefer the greatly increased factor of safety that is obtained with the 130,000 lbs. elastic limit that the treating gives." So there you have it for the 38/44.

I suspect the .357's, the first of which were produced in April of the next year received the same treatment---but that's all I do---suspect. D.B. Wesson's Scrapbook has a lengthy chapter on Philip B. Sharpe, credited as the man who developed the .357 Magnum cartridge. It contains several pages of captioned photographs of soap blocks Mr. Sharpe murdered along his way to what we call the .357 Magnum with various loads ranging from .38 Special through the 38/44 Special to the ".38 Sharpe Magnum"----which moved along at 1,374 fps---presumably from the 38/44 Outdoorsman revolver.

Finally, a personal note: I have Arthur's K-22 Outdoorsman--now sporting a King Cockeyed Hammer---Arthur was clearly a fan of the good stuff. If anybody has his big Outdoorsman, and would like to exchange it for U.S currency; that might be arranged----especially if it has a King Cockeyed Hammer---"to match".

Ralph Tremaine

Respectfully submitted from dictionary.com:
"Also, especially British, calibre"
The Brits use the French spelling, as they do for "theatre" and "centre".

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