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11-04-2017, 02:07 AM
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Post-War Pre-23 - 38/44 Outdoorsman - Anyone modified one?
I recently won an online auction and have a post-war Pre-23 with 6" barrel on the way. The gun has some finish issues but the description claims it's in good mechanical condition. The description stated that there was a few minor areas of light rust on the cylinder and some corrosion under the stocks (which are not original). Also has strong rifling, so hoping that means a clean bore and no issues with the chambers. Kind of shooting in the dark on this one since the only photos I have are the four that are posted here.
I am pondering whether to leave the gun as is, clean it up a bit and shoot it, maybe a good candidate for refinish?
I am leaning towards cleaning it up and hoping the bore and chambers are good and just shoot it, but if the barrel is too far gone I may make a project out of it.
Or possibly put a shorter barrel, such as a 3-1/2" Model 27 barrel on it and have the chambers reamed for .357 Magnum.
Curious what others have done or come across as regards to modified 38/44 OD's???
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11-04-2017, 02:59 AM
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It's your new toy so you can do as you wish, but why buy it to make it into something it is not? That said, I like things as they were made and enjoyed. I suggest you shoot it before altering it, but, thats just me. Kyle
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11-04-2017, 04:12 AM
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I could say "It's yours, do what you like." But, since you asked...
Personally, I'd leave it exactly as is, with possible change in grips.
I think it has an attractive character.
All the signs of use indicate it has been serving life as intended. Real wear is a Badge of Honor.
It's not like someone messed it up with boogered screws, file marks, deep gouges from abuse, or amateur engraving, etc.
Please don't rechamber it. If you want a high performance load, just use the Lyman SWC with the double crimp grooves (358156, I think?). Then, you can seat the bullet out for approx 357 OAL using 38 special brass.
Besides, I suspect the steel used in the 38-44 may not be the same as in the 357. Do I recall that S&W made a big deal out of the "special steel" originally used with the 357?
For the cost of a good refinish and rechamber, you could probably buy a used S&W M28 and then have the best of both worlds!
Or, consider what you just spent, add about $500 (ball park guestimate) to have the work really done right.... Where does that put you? Maybe that figure is enough to buy your dream gun, in factory original condition!
Best Regards,
Jim
PS: did you notice your new toy has hardly any turn line? Wow! Carried plenty, shot little!
Last edited by 6string; 11-04-2017 at 04:13 AM.
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11-04-2017, 04:45 AM
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...one less 38/44 Outdoorsman in the world...doesn't sound good to me...
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11-04-2017, 09:29 AM
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In case you need a visualization of all of that in a finished product...
Chopped, bored, trigger work, someone made what it what they wanted at some point and I think it's a cool shooter.
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11-04-2017, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alaskavett
It's your new toy so you can do as you wish, but why buy it to make it into something it is not? That said, I like things as they were made and enjoyed. I suggest you shoot it before altering it, but, thats just me. Kyle
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I will certainly clean it up and shoot it before deciding what to do but I tend to leave guns in their original configuration unless they have serious issues.
But that said, I do not shy away from buying modified S&W's if done tastefully. I have posted about a "Frankensmith" that I purchased not long ago and many other S&W folks have found similar pieces.
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Tom Graham SWCA #2303
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11-04-2017, 11:43 AM
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This is a prewar.38/44 OD conversion to a Prewar .44 Target 5" configuration. Our good friend 230grfmj undertook this project and I bought it from him in July 2008. Here is the story:
"The frame is a pre war N frame 38/44 Outdoorsman (SN 43576) circa 1934, and the barrel is from a 5” pre war .44 HE 3rd model, circa 1926-1940, that I had Hamilton Bowen fit to this frame. It did not have to be rebored or re-rollmarked to 44 Special. The front sight originally was the normal forged half moon shaped sight used on fixed sighted guns. He milled off the half moon, made a Patridge blade and installed into the blade and inserted a gold bead to resemble a “Call” gold bead, and then pinned it to the forged base, while not disturbing the original shape of the base. The cylinder has the front edge given what Bowen refers to as the "black powder chamfer" as you can see in the pictures. The grips were made by Roy Fishpaw and were hand fitted to this frame and numbered to it as well. The emblems are pre war (.500") in mint condition (never re-nickeled or any other type of refinishing) that were sent to Roy to use when making these grips. The entire project took a little over a year to complete."
The workmanship is superb, as one should expect from Hamilton Bowen and the great Roy Fishpaw. Tom's (230grfmj) attention to details -- the front sight base, Call gold bead, original prewar medallions -- make this an especially desirable and enjoyable conversion. To his credit, Tom gave me the original OD barrel, photos, and all documentation of the conversion process.
Why on earth would someone spend the time and money to do this? My answer is the OD is a fine firearm (I have pre and post war examples, and a 1950 Model that is one sweet shooter), but converting an original condition HD/OD to .357 in this era is a disservice as 27's, 28's, stainless steel/alloy variants, and .357's in general are plentiful. Prewar .44 Target 5", not so much. And, as Tom told me, "Because I can!" Many of us collect and preserve, and it's OK to chase a wild hare once in a while to create something that is unique.
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11-04-2017, 12:42 PM
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THREEDFLYER,
Speaking of wild hares, do you remember the Hamilton Bowen 45HD conversion? Many of us have 4" and 5" 45HD's. I have NEVER seen a Hamilton Bowen 45OD. Now that would be a truly unique Frankensmith!
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11-04-2017, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gila Bender
THREEDFLYER,
Speaking of wild hares, do you remember the Hamilton Bowen 45HD conversion? Many of us have 4" and 5" 45HD's. I have NEVER seen a Hamilton Bowen 45OD. Now that would be a truly unique Frankensmith!
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Let me "third" the recommendation of going big bore if you are going to modify the gun. .44 special or .45 Colt would be the direction I would head....and for me, the5" barrel on an N frame is just somehow right.
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11-04-2017, 03:22 PM
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I'd see how it shoots as is first. If it's average and nothing exceptional, I would cut it to 5 inch, red ramp, white inlay, target hammer and target trigger, in nickel.
Last edited by moosedog; 11-04-2017 at 03:24 PM.
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11-04-2017, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A10
Let me "third" the recommendation of going big bore if you are going to modify the gun. .44 special or .45 Colt would be the direction I would head....and for me, the5" barrel on an N frame is just somehow right.
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What he said, in .45 Colt. Someone was selling an HD so converted by H. Bowen in the classifieds a few years back. I passed as it was too much $$$. I wish I had that to do over.
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11-04-2017, 06:03 PM
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I will freely admit that I cannot give an unbiased opinion on a question like this one. One the one hand, as has been said already it is yours to do with as you please, and yes if your wants and budget allow for skilled refinishing or conversion it would sure seem to be a crackerjack candidate for such.
But me -- I'd clean her up meticulously, do some very judicious restoration -- what I call "refreshment" -- of the grips, and be proud and happy to shoot it.
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11-04-2017, 06:40 PM
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I would sure hesitate, think, ponder, consider, mull, the decision about reaming it for .357 Mag. Then I wouldn't do it!
Others have said it: just reload .38 Specials to 38/44 specifications. Or seek out the stoutest Buffalo Bore .38 Special +P if you don't reload.
Heavy .38 Special +P Pistol & Handgun Ammunition
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11-04-2017, 07:27 PM
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Dave Keith special 38/44 OD reduced to 5 inch barrel and nickel plated by some feller somewhere down south.
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11-04-2017, 07:45 PM
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I like it IGGY!
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11-04-2017, 09:31 PM
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Oh, I've improved a few............
A Transitional OD now a 5" 44 Special. (That's being cared for by a close personal friend)
Another OD converted to 44 Special
A Pre-War OD now a 4" OD/TL 44 Special (wearing the same old stocks as above)
* All the ones I've modified for the better had some major issues to start with.
.
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Last edited by keith44spl; 11-05-2017 at 06:28 PM.
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11-04-2017, 09:53 PM
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Here's another one of Dave's doin's.
Cut down from a rusty 6 1/2" to a five inch. 45 ACP and 45 Colt.
You'd think maybe I like shiny 5 inchers or sumthin.
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11-04-2017, 11:09 PM
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I am under the impression that Hamilton Bowen does not modify S&W's anymore . Same goes for Dave Clements .
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11-05-2017, 10:07 AM
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Have seen a few converted to 44 Special.
Unfortunately, have never seen a good one.
All were Pretty ugly!
Don’t trade for or buy any.
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11-05-2017, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PILGRIM
Have seen a few converted to 44 Special.
Unfortunately, have never seen a good one.
All were Pretty ugly!
Don’t trade for or buy any.
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LOL,
Ya don't get out much do ya????
One of my converts...
.
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Last edited by keith44spl; 11-05-2017 at 05:54 PM.
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11-05-2017, 11:05 AM
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11-05-2017, 11:48 AM
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This .38/44 Outdoorsman was originally shipped in 1947. It was subsequently sent to Hamilton Bowen and converted to 45 Colt caliber and has a three position long range front sight. The stocks are by Sanderson. It is one of my favorite shooters. Click on the photo for a better look.
Bill
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11-05-2017, 12:14 PM
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Given that someone raised the issue of safety, noting his opinion the OD used different steel than the .357, here's what I know----and it came from a letter from D. B. Wesson (via the SWHF) and from D. B. Wesson's Scrapbook. Having said I "know", it should not be construed to mean I understand any conclusions derived from the obvious extrapolations of these facts I've made----simply that I believe them-----and have therefore no reservations whatsoever about safety.
The steel: The steel used for the OD cylinder has/had "130,000 lbs. elastic limit that the treating gives." The "treating" is heat treating. The source is a letter from Wesson dated March 1, 1934. March 1, 1934 predates the .357 Magnum. What that steel will tolerate comes from the Scrapbook---Chapter 3, devoted to Philip B. Sharpe, "Considered the man who developed the .357 Magnum cartridge". Along the way to this development, Mr. Sharpe developed what he called the ".38 Sharpe Magnum". It produced a velocity of 1,374 fps. It stands to reason (my reason anyway) the bullet measured at that velocity came from the cylinder/barrel of an OD (of the pre-war variety).
Now, as to any and all conclusions I reach from these "elastic limits" and velocity numbers, there are no calculations involved----simply because I don't know how such calculations are done---nor do I care. I simply accept as fact that an OD will handle such loads all day long---not that I would be the one converting a gun for use with Magnum cartridges, nor shooting it---and that because while I used to be a shooter (a looooooong time ago) I have evolved into a lunatic fringe collector----only.
Bottom Line: As has been stated above, it's your gun---and you can damn well do whatever you please with it. Given the bent to mess with it, and shoot it, I'd have no safety reservations whatsoever. That because of what I know and accept as fact---and also because I don't really care about what I don't know.
Do as you will---and be happy!
Ralph Tremaine
And while I'm at it, never mind it has but little to do with the topic at hand, what's up with these dire warnings against using loads "like Elmer Keith used" in a Triple Lock? If I was still a "shooter", I'm inclined to think that would be a hoot---big time!!
Last edited by rct269; 11-05-2017 at 12:25 PM.
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11-05-2017, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269
... And while I'm at it, never mind it has but little to do with the topic at hand, what's up with these dire warnings against using loads "like Elmer Keith used" in a Triple Lock? If I was still a "shooter", I'm inclined to think that would be a hoot---big time!!
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Me thinks that it's more about collectors being worried that there are fewer and fewer triple locks available to blow up when you get the charge just a little too hot for a little too long... If I recall reading correctly, Mr. Keith blew up more than one or two S&Ws, but then again I may be confusing EK with someone else...
Ralph, I have to tell you that a smile creeps to the corners of my mouth and the crinkles of my eyes every time you post - well almost every time. Your respectful candor, whit, insight, and been-there-done-that humor resonates on the same frequency as my funny bone. I only wish you would post a photo every now and again of your "lunatic fringe collection"...
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11-05-2017, 04:36 PM
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I guess I'm one of those EK disciples, but I shoot the loads he described for a given gun in that gun. I carried a model 58 for 13 years with his loads for that caliber. They are salty and very effective.
I also shoot his 38/44 specified loads in a two different 38/44 revolvers.
Me and my guns are still here.. I would not however ream out a 38/44 and shoot his or anyone else's .357 mag rounds in it.
It might work, but I have .357s that work just fine for that job.
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11-05-2017, 05:15 PM
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Here’s my originally a Pre - 27 now a .44 Special 3 1/2”.
Collectors, don’t get heartburn, she was in tough shape when I got her. Barrel had chopped, not crowned and gun had a so-so reblue job.
Sent it off to Dave Clements and he performed his magic.
Yep, I have too much invested in it. But, I care not.
It shoots good and it suits me just fine.
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11-05-2017, 08:22 PM
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US Veteran SWCA Member Absent Comrade
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A guy by the last name of King did this one.
You can see this one in Tulsa next weekend.
Charlie
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11-06-2017, 09:26 AM
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Some nice custom guns came out for us to see. A nice custom done in a way the factory didn’t offer is neat. I wouldn’t spend money on a .357 conversion cause you probably have a bunch of .357’s to use. Leaving it as it is for a shooter or a bbl cut would be neat. After spending money on it you are kind of stuck with it. There is a nice looking 5” Outdoorsman on GB, been there for a while. Cut barrel and nice reblue but too high of a price. Larry
Last edited by Jebus35745; 11-06-2017 at 09:28 AM.
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11-08-2017, 06:06 AM
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If you clean this old girl up, inside and out, gently polish the finish with Flitz and take her to the range, you'll have a high school crush all over again!! I have had one of these for about 30 years and enjoy it every time we go to the range. From Bullseye powered wadcutters to Elmer's 38/44 loads it will handle them all with style and accuracy!! Gary
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11-08-2017, 09:03 AM
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Reamed to take the 357 makes an 'almost Model 28' for you.
The gun is worth much more as a 38 OD than as a wanna-be Model 28.
Sell it and buy a Mod 28 and use the extra cash to buy another Model 28 if you want a 357.
If the reamer work had already been done and the gun priced accordingly, I wouldn't dismiss it,,I just can't see making one.
If the bore/chambers have some problems, I'd consider a caliber change. 44SP, 45Colt, 44-40, 45AR, ect. Lots of choices.
MAybe cut the bbl length down. Now your getting into a custom handgun. It'll be pricey but properly done they are gems.
Custom grips, engraving, plating,,you can keep going as far as your talent or wallet will take you.
It's a great gun to build on if you choose to. Have fun.
Great examples shown here!
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11-08-2017, 12:30 PM
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If you want a 357 Magnum, buy a 357 Magnum. I don't get buying a 38 Special so you can spend at least half the price of the gun to make it into something it wasn't.
Suspect I may be getting cranky in my advancing years.
Dave
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07-02-2021, 09:08 PM
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Pre 23 mod
Sorry for the Lazarus post,
I must have missed this thread in 2017,
just saw a link in a recent thread about 5" Pre War 38-44 Outdoorsman.
Anyway, purchased a shooter grade Pre 23 years ago and swapped this 4" Reg Mag barrel onto it one weekend with my Ole buddy Allen Frame.
Also swapped a smooth combat trigger and a pair of homage pre war Magnas.
20210702_205106.jpg
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07-03-2021, 01:33 AM
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I own a post war Outdoorsman with a 5" barrel. I bought off a gentleman I worked with. He bought it in a pawnshop with the barrel already cut. He decided that it was too heavy for 38 special and offered it to me for $350. I wish it was still the original barrel length mainly because it would be worth much more than one with a cut barrel. The only revolver I ever modified was a M-28 I bought at a show that turned out to have a bad spot in the barrel, I converted it to .45 Colt. I had always wanted one and S&W wasn't making 25-5s at that time. When Smith came out with 25-5s I bought one and had a heck of a time selling the modified one.
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