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11-09-2017, 09:25 PM
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General Patton related tweet by S&W today
Just thought I'd share this with y'all in case anyone missed it. S&W tweeted this out today:
[url=https://flic.kr/p/Ddw8uu]
Last edited by 357magster; 11-09-2017 at 09:26 PM.
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11-09-2017, 09:26 PM
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I can only imagine the tweets that Patton might send if he were around these days.
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11-09-2017, 10:27 PM
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One of our greatest generals. Expressed his thoughts and wasn’t afraid too. Looking back today if they listened to him the world would be a better place.
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11-09-2017, 10:37 PM
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Thanks for posting!
Didn’t know Ft. Shafter was still open, didn’t know GP was stationed there.
GP prefers a ‘dead center hold?’
That didn’t surprise me!
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11-09-2017, 10:52 PM
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Imagine s&w receiving a order from GP? Not subject to cancellation? And to be filled as promptly as possible?
I wonder how he received his 357 magnum ammo in Europe or in the sand box ?
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11-09-2017, 11:33 PM
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I would imagine that he would get the same customer service as would, say, Clint Eastwood, Chuck Norris, or a 500 pound gorilla--"right damn NOW!"
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11-09-2017, 11:40 PM
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I don't think he would tolerate any excuses. He was acustomed to getting want he wanted now. Great man.
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11-10-2017, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBill
One of our greatest generals. Expressed his thoughts and wasn’t afraid too. Looking back today if they listened to him the world would be a better place.
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Indeed, he wanted to take his Third Army right to Moscow to finish the war. He saw the Russians a no good. If he had done that successfully the world would be a much different place today.
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11-10-2017, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat Guano
I would imagine that he would get the same customer service as would, say, Clint Eastwood, Chuck Norris, or a 500 pound gorilla--"right damn NOW!"
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I imagine he would get the fastest service S&W ever provided. What a PR coup for S&W having GP taking delivery.
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11-10-2017, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snuffy51
I don't think he would tolerate any excuses. He was acustomed to getting want he wanted now. Great man.
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Actually he was not a comed to getting what he wanted. He was most oftenstymied by the political generals who were trying to maintain appearances. HP cared about accomplish,Mets not appearances. In the final months of the war she. They needed an old horse soldier to press the attack they assigned Patton because they knew he would do,it better than any other general in the ETO.
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11-10-2017, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PILGRIM
Thanks for posting!
Didn’t know Ft. Shafter was still open, didn’t know GP was stationed there.
GP prefers a ‘dead center hold?’
That didn’t surprise me!
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From my experience when it comes to close quarter fighting the center hold is best. At 100yards with a rifle I o’clock. At fifteen yards with a pistol it was always center hold.
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11-10-2017, 03:49 AM
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US Veteran Absent Comrade
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Bear in mind that when the order was placed, he was just a Lt.Col. stationed on Hawaii, not a famed, controversial general.
But an Army officer got a discount and probably, prompt service.
Another famous man who ordered a .357 Magnum was wild animal trapper, author, and film maker Frank Buck. His .357 had a 6.5 inch barrel and was rushed to him soon after WW 2, as he prepared to leave on an Asian trip.
Prior to this, he wore a .38-44 Heavy Duty or .44 Military, Third Model They look the same unless you look at the size of the holes in the barrel and cylinder. I think it was a .38-44. This gun had a five-inch barrel, and Buck wore it in some of his films.
Patton wore his guns openly and took pride in them. Most US senior generals didn't wear openly a lot, nor did Lord Montgomery, Patton's chief ego rival. Maj Gen. James Gavin wore his .45 auto, a Randall Model 1 knife, and carried a Garand rifle in battle. He commanded the 82nd Airborne Div.
Patton probably carried a quantity of .357 and .45 Colt ammo in his gear. I doubt that he was supplied in the field. But I don't think he fired any shots in battle after the 1916 Pershing expedition after Pancho Villa. He did shoot a few Mexicans then, with a fancy Colt SAA .45.
I don't think it matters a lot at 15 yards whether you hold center or six-'o-clock on a man. How would you do the latter? Aim at a button on his shirt?
Last edited by Texas Star; 11-10-2017 at 04:12 AM.
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11-10-2017, 08:15 AM
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Sometimes I think posters confuse George C. Scott
with Georgie Patton.
Although a tank commander, his ideas about the use
of tanks and their guns were gathering cobwebs by 1944.
But he was colorful.
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11-10-2017, 09:05 AM
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Just an FYI...
That document was the standard S&W order form (note the S&W trademark at the top of the page). Patton (or his Aide) simply filled in the blanks. The terms "It is understood that this order will be filled as promptly as possible and is not subject to cancellation" were S&W's terms, not Patton's.
In today's business speak, it translates to; "We'll get to it when we get to it" and "You order it, you bought it"!
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11-10-2017, 09:22 AM
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Factory ivories ?
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11-10-2017, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardw
Indeed, he wanted to take his Third Army right to Moscow to finish the war. He saw the Russians a no good. If he had done that successfully the world would be a much different place today.
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How'd that work out for Napoleon and Hitler?
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11-10-2017, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shocker
How'd that work out for Napoleon and Hitler?
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They got cold feet
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11-10-2017, 11:32 AM
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SWCA Member Absent Comrade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardw
Actually he was not a comed to getting what he wanted. He was most oftenstymied by the political generals who were trying to maintain appearances. HP cared about accomplish,Mets not appearances.....
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Actually, if anyone cared about appearances, it was Patton. In fact, one of the most fascinating aspects of his character was the combination of his undeniable ability on the battlefield with an extreme personal vanity. Starting with that silly polished helmet and on to his fancy “gun rigs du jour”, the man was obsessed with his public appearance. Most general officers put that Colt 1903/1908 that they got issued someplace and got down to the business of generaling, but Patton actually had inlaid stars added to the grip panel as he was promoted. Very odd duck.
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11-10-2017, 12:05 PM
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If I were S&W, I would have hand delivered that order and had him sign for it......Then take the autograph and auction it.
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11-10-2017, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 357magster
Just thought I'd share this with y'all in case anyone missed it. S&W tweeted this out today:
[url=https://flic.kr/p/Ddw8uu]
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There are three Smith and Wesson documents associated with that order. Here are the other two.
These three documents were together years ago
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11-10-2017, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawandorder
Factory ivories ?
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No, they were added later
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11-10-2017, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shocker
How'd that work out for Napoleon and Hitler?
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The Russians hadn't just lost 10 million soldiers to the Germans. We were geared up for armaments production and our industrial might was far greater than the Russians who still had many factories in ruin. All lend lease shipments to the Russians would have been cut off. Japan was on the ropes and we had this thing called the atom bomb too. Patton's ideas might have cost us and our allies plenty but the situation the Russians were in at the end of WWII were far more dire than what Hitler and Napoleon had to deal with.
Just sayin'
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11-10-2017, 03:05 PM
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Very cool and interesting. Thanks for the share.
I wish I could fill out one of those order forms and send it on in.
Although I'm about 82yrs late to the party.
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11-10-2017, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepdawg
Patton's ideas might have cost us and our allies plenty but the situation the Russians were in at the end of WWII were far more dire than what Hitler and Napoleon had to deal with.
Just sayin'
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The U.S. public was war weary and peace was being
demanded. The U.S. held back taking Berlin because
no one wanted to see more U.S. troops die; the attitude
was "let the Russians do it."
It's summed up well with "Patton's ideas might have cost
us and the allies plenty......" Besides the U.S., Britain
and the French had seen enough as far as they were
concerned.
And if Russia were conquered, then the cost of rebuilding
it would have put yet more strain on the Allies and its
people. And it wouldn't have been just Russia or the
Soviet empire, it would have also entailed rebuilding
all of what later became known as the "Eastern Bloc."
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11-10-2017, 04:06 PM
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We had one atomic bomb left over because we didn’t drop it on Tokyo. We could of dropped it on Russia with probably no loss of man power.
We sent Russia all the stuff they needed to fight the war. Even machines to manufacture what they needed. We supplied the allies during ww2. How soon all these allies forget and turn against us today.
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11-10-2017, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawandorder
Factory ivories ?
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NOPE!!
I know this because I too have a pair of "factory" ivories---at least I did---right up until Jinks told me "Smith & Wesson did not offer ivory grips for their "N" frame revolvers."
Now, that was on February 14, 2017. In 1989 (thereabouts) he told us four (blue) Registered Magnums went out with ivory grips.
Adding all this together and dividing by an adjustment factor, I reckon the RM's were wearing ivories made by someone else (and perhaps fit to the Magnums by the factory).
It is the nature of his calling to publish facts at one point in time, and then, following more poking around, to publish more facts----ostensibly contradicting the first.
If you wish to avoid all such seeming confusion, you need to collect new stuff---and stay away from the old stuff---which sounds like no fun at all!!
Ralph Tremaine
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11-10-2017, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepdawg
The Russians hadn't just lost 10 million soldiers to the Germans. We were geared up for armaments production and our industrial might was far greater than the Russians who still had many factories in ruin. All lend lease shipments to the Russians would have been cut off. Japan was on the ropes and we had this thing called the atom bomb too. Patton's ideas might have cost us and our allies plenty but the situation the Russians were in at the end of WWII were far more dire than what Hitler and Napoleon had to deal with.
Just sayin'
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It may have worked. As long as the red ball express was still on. That's one thing that neither Bony or Adolf had.
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11-10-2017, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleEd
The U.S. public was war weary and peace was being
demanded. The U.S. held back taking Berlin because
no one wanted to see more U.S. troops die; the attitude
was "let the Russians do it."
It's summed up well with "Patton's ideas might have cost
us and the allies plenty......" Besides the U.S., Britain
and the French had seen enough as far as they were
concerned.
And if Russia were conquered, then the cost of rebuilding
it would have put yet more strain on the Allies and its
people. And it wouldn't have been just Russia or the
Soviet empire, it would have also entailed rebuilding
all of what later became known as the "Eastern Bloc."
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I'm not saying we could have done it or should have done it, I'm just stating that the situation facing Napoleon or Herr Hitler was nothing like what Patton was looking at on May 8, 1945. First we would have had air superiority. The Soviet Air Forces had come a long ways since 1941 but I doubt they could have equaled the P-51 and they didn't have anything like the B-29. We had tested 5 more atomic devices by the time the USSR tested it's first in 1949. At that time it was estimated the United States had 50, some 3 times more powerful than the one set off over Hiroshima and unlike the Soviets we had the capability to deliver them.
Patton was holding a better hand than the others that tried.
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11-10-2017, 08:12 PM
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SWCA Member Absent Comrade
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With all due respect, you guys are dreaming.
Let’s leave aside the fact that the US didn’t enter the European war to free Poland or any Eastern European country, but because Hitler had become a threat to the world. Based on the many memoirs of the European theater I’ve read, I don’t see how you could have gotten any of those citizen soldiers to start shooting at their former Russian allies instead of going home.
Considering the personal issue, Patton was a battlefield commander who never commanded anything larger than the Third Army. He (and military historians tend to agree) considered the operation leading up to the relief of Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge his greatest battle, which involved no more than a few divisions.
The Third Army was only one of four US field armies, plus British and Canadian armies, that made up the Allied force, and there is no indication that anyone considered Patton qualified for higher command. And managing the kind of move against the Red Army you are talking about would require completely different magic than telling a division to attack here or there.
You can drive from Normandy to the former Iron Curtain, the general line of advance of the Western allies, in a day if you want. Nevertheless, the Allied advance into Germany was delayed by months several times not so much by German resistance, but by stretched supply lines despite going through an area with excellent developed infrastructure even back then.
The idea of supporting an advance into the East, no matter with what weapons superiority or led by whom, based on a supply line through a devastated Europe and Britain to North America, is simply ludicrous.
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11-11-2017, 02:14 AM
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The premise was stated that Patton would have suffered the same fate as Napoleon or Hitler in trying to take Moscow. What you fail to take into consideration is as far as supply one of the allies biggest problems was a suitable port to unload supplies. With Germany out of the war or even an ally by then all of the Baltic ports such as Kiel, Bremerhaven or Lubeck would have then been in the allies hands. Once put back in working order which the Americans proved could be done within months, the supplies would have increased to a great degree and the supply lines shortened considerably.
With the allies controlling the Baltic Sea what Soviet ports weren't iced over 3 months out of the year.
From the once German airfields Moscow, most of what was left of Soviet industry, ports that could stay open year round and most of the Soviet oil fields were in easy reach of the B-29s, their P-51 fighter support and whatever payload they carried.
What was the USSR going to do for food since lend lease basically kept their troops fed. The Russians got 8% of their tanks, 1/3 of their trucks, 13% of their aircraft and an astounding 92 % of their railroad equipment between 1942 through 1945 through lend lease. They would have been in some serious trouble if we had just cut it off, how do you conduct a war a thousand miles away without rail, with food rations to their troops cut in half and no replacement parts for much of their machinery?
Many saw Patton as nuts when he said everyone should now team up and beat the real enemy, the Soviet Union. It would have been another bloodbath at a time where the world had just seen it's biggest bloodbath. Unlike Napoleon or Hitler, Patton's thoughts might not have been that ludicrous.
Well it never happened and we'll never know how it would have turned out but IMHO allied success in defeating the Soviets in the years just after WWII was far more probable than for Napoleon and it would have been run by far more competent leaders than the little Bohemian corporal. Remember he got within 20 miles of Moscow before he fired his generals took personal control over Operation Barbarossa and started the German downfall on the Russian battlefields.
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Last edited by sheepdawg; 11-11-2017 at 02:22 AM.
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11-11-2017, 08:11 AM
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Remember Patton was from a wealthy family and followed a tradition of one son going into the military. He could buy any sidearm on the market. A pity some smart gunsmith at Abercrombie & Fitch didn't sell him a .45 ACP Cylinder for his SAA.
Geoff
Who notes he supported Patton Jr's Division at Ft. Hood in the 70s.
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11-11-2017, 08:29 AM
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My new screen background.
Thanks.
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11-11-2017, 09:26 AM
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Well I don't know much about what would have been if but I tell you this it's cool to know that General Patton evidently thought the 357 mag would be a good caliber to carry and it's still considered a standard bearer today that says something about the fellows who were designing these guns and new cartridges back then . Serious men designing guns and calibers for serious work thanks for posting the documents that was very interesting.Also thanks to all you guys who added interesting ideas about what if and Historic prospective and knowledge about WW2 ,and the answer to the factory ivories question some thing I did not know but now I do .Thanks to all of you .What a fitting thread for Veterans Day .
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11-11-2017, 12:51 PM
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When America gears up for production our manufacturing might is unmatched. When I was building CNC machine tools the high production controllers with multiple axis weren’t allowed out of the country. I shipped to China a 2 axis CNC lathe that weighed 200,000 pounds and took five trailer trucks to get it to the shipping docks here. When it arrived in China they uncrated it on there docks were it was left outside to rust in the rain because they had no way to move them. Some parts were 25 tons plus. Plus they have no permatex.
Think about it they have barefoot doctors on bicycles who can cure throat cancer go figure.
I build a Bullard multi matic chucker that you load a rough casting of a trailer truck brake drum and I cycles around the different cutting and drill stations in 25 seconds comes out finished ready to go on the truck.
I seen Piston checkers were a finished turned piston without the wrist pin hole comes out every seven seconds.
Last edited by BigBill; 11-11-2017 at 12:58 PM.
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11-11-2017, 01:01 PM
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Absent Comrade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepdawg
The Russians hadn't just lost 10 million soldiers to the Germans. We were geared up for armaments production and our industrial might was far greater than the Russians who still had many factories in ruin. All lend lease shipments to the Russians would have been cut off. Japan was on the ropes and we had this thing called the atom bomb too. Patton's ideas might have cost us and our allies plenty but the situation the Russians were in at the end of WWII were far more dire than what Hitler and Napoleon had to deal with.
Just sayin'
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There is war movies from Russia that shows machine tool operators in the winter time were there factories had no roofs. Talk about out in to cold production.
We have to give the Russians credit the war was hell for them. The cold weather in Russian beat the Germans.
Last edited by BigBill; 11-11-2017 at 01:03 PM.
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11-11-2017, 01:03 PM
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Chesty Was His Cousin
Quote:
Originally Posted by richardw
Actually he was not a comed to getting what he wanted. He was most oftenstymied by the political generals who were trying to maintain appearances. HP cared about accomplish,Mets not appearances. In the final months of the war she. They needed an old horse soldier to press the attack they assigned Patton because they knew he would do,it better than any other general in the ETO.
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And OUR Gen. Chesty was a cousin. Similar personalities.
Semper Fi
And___a wonderful 242nd birthday.
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11-11-2017, 01:07 PM
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Center Mass
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star
Bear in mind that when the order was placed, he was just a Lt.Col. stationed on Hawaii, not a famed, controversial general.
But an Army officer got a discount and probably, prompt service.
Another famous man who ordered a .357 Magnum was wild animal trapper, author, and film maker Frank Buck. His .357 had a 6.5 inch barrel and was rushed to him soon after WW 2, as he prepared to leave on an Asian trip.
Prior to this, he wore a .38-44 Heavy Duty or .44 Military, Third Model They look the same unless you look at the size of the holes in the barrel and cylinder. I think it was a .38-44. This gun had a five-inch barrel, and Buck wore it in some of his films.
Patton wore his guns openly and took pride in them. Most US senior generals didn't wear openly a lot, nor did Lord Montgomery, Patton's chief ego rival. Maj Gen. James Gavin wore his .45 auto, a Randall Model 1 knife, and carried a Garand rifle in battle. He commanded the 82nd Airborne Div.
Patton probably carried a quantity of .357 and .45 Colt ammo in his gear. I doubt that he was supplied in the field. But I don't think he fired any shots in battle after the 1916 Pershing expedition after Pancho Villa. He did shoot a few Mexicans then, with a fancy Colt SAA .45.
I don't think it matters a lot at 15 yards whether you hold center or six-'o-clock on a man. How would you do the latter? Aim at a button on his shirt?
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Not a button. Center Mass.
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11-13-2017, 06:56 PM
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US Veteran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PILGRIM
Thanks for posting!
Didn’t know Ft. Shafter was still open, didn’t know GP was stationed there.
GP prefers a ‘dead center hold?’
That didn’t surprise me!
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The Hale Koa AFRC Hotel is on the grounds of old Fort Shafter along with the US Army Museum of the Pacific. The old parade grounds are a park. Lots of guys my age processed through there on their way to Vietnam.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Luke 22:36
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11-13-2017, 07:23 PM
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[QUOTE=elm_creek_smith;139814019]The Hale Koa AFRC Hotel is on the grounds of old Fort Shafter along with the US Army Museum of the Pacific. The old parade grounds are a park. Lots of guys my age processed through there on their way to Vietnam
The location you are describing is Ft. DeRussy.
I once stayed there in an old WII barracks.
Ft. Shafter is still HQ US Army Pacific, except Korea.
Fort DeRussy Military Reservation - Wikipedia
Fort Shafter - Wikipedia
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Last edited by THE PILGRIM; 11-13-2017 at 07:28 PM.
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11-13-2017, 07:36 PM
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[quote=THE PILGRIM;139814046]
Quote:
Originally Posted by elm_creek_smith
The Hale Koa AFRC Hotel is on the grounds of old Fort Shafter along with the US Army Museum of the Pacific. The old parade grounds are a park. Lots of guys my age processed through there on their way to Vietnam
The location you are describing is Ft. DeRussy.
I once stayed there in an old WII barracks.
Ft. Shafter is still HQ US Army Pacific, except Korea.
Fort DeRussy Military Reservation - Wikipedia
Fort Shafter - Wikipedia
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You're absolutely right about that. Must be getting old.
Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
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Luke 22:36
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11-13-2017, 08:09 PM
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Does that say $48 on the order form? Wonder what that is in today's dollars.
Edit to add: $864.77 in today's money
Last edited by Bozz10mm; 11-13-2017 at 08:11 PM.
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11-13-2017, 09:15 PM
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"First crush the Soviet Union, then on to China!"
Well, if we're gonna dream, let's DREAM BIG!
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They lack our altruism.
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11-13-2017, 09:42 PM
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Wow!!! Did I do a triple take when I looked at the Registered Magnum box I own for Reg 507. I guess that’s as close as I will ever get to General Patton’s .357.
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11-14-2017, 12:11 AM
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Me thinks he not only got prompt attention, but most likely expedited service.
$48? I'll take a dozen of them!
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11-14-2017, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Flash
"First crush the Soviet Union, then on to China!"
Well, if we're gonna dream, let's DREAM BIG!
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Eh, except the Soviet Union was still technically an ally
in 1945 but so was China which was not a communist
country then. And Gen. Joe Stilwell urged we work with
Mao Tse Tung and help kick out the crooked warlords.
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11-14-2017, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleEd
Eh, except the Soviet Union was still technically an ally
in 1945 but so was China which was not a communist
country then. And Gen. Joe Stilwell urged we work with
Mao Tse Tung and help kick out the crooked warlords.
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My post was meant to agree with the "you're dreaming" post. I guess that wasn't obvious.
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They lack our altruism.
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11-14-2017, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faulkner
I can only imagine the tweets that Patton might send if he were around these days.
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I think we have a pretty good idea of that...
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11-14-2017, 09:53 PM
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I saw that revolver, along with his Colt SAA, both with Ivory "GSP" engraved stocks, at the Patton Museum at Ft. Knox when I was stationed there in the early 1980's. I assume that they are still there.
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Only a cold warrior
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