I have an early N frame side plate with original nickel finish that I need to ID as to its timeline, assembly number is 10901 (probably not much help). What say you.

Attached Images

	IMG_0606.jpg (119.0 KB, 157 views)
	IMG_0607.jpg (122.1 KB, 148 views)

The large logo on side plate dates it to after Dec 1936 when it was ordered.
The 2nd style side plate mounted hammer block clinches it to the same pre war period.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thanks Hondo44, really appreciate your expertize. I was thinking prewar 38/44. I'm working on a project gun that is a 1937 Brazil contract 45acp with a missing side plate but I don't want to polish away such a fine and strong logo example. And the missing Brazil logo plate is proving to be a search for the holy grail. I did get a blank 1917 side plate from Numrich which will take awhile to polish and blue to match the gun. At some point in time someone refinished the gun and then for some reason, it was parted out. Lucky or not, I got it with the frame, barrel, cylinder, and ejector star with matching numbers plus a fine patent date hammer. Missing were the side plate, trigger with hand, cylinder stop, mainspring, rebound slide with spring, and 4 screws. I hope that available 1917 parts will interchange. Again, thanks guys!

Yes, someone may need a large logo side plate. And the nickel is removable with out polishing if that someone needs a blued side plate.

The 1917 plate may or may not have provision for the side plate mounted hammer block; depends on the vintage. If it does and you want to use it, you'll need to be sure to get the correct hand with ramp, and trigger compatible with it.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Hondo44, I tried a standard hand and trigger last night in the lockwork assembly and it is too tight to function. Can the hammer block be by passed as there are no hammer block hands for this gun available anywhere. I can use the side plate that we were discussing if I had the right hand. I do have several plain 1917 side plates. Are the metrics too far apart to substitute a standard hand? What type trigger goes with the hammer block hand? I had assumed that all of the patent marked hammers and triggers were the same. Appreciate your advice.

1] Did you separate the hand from the trigger to determine which is too tight? Try just the trigger. If that works, was the side plate on when you tried? If yes, the hand could be binding on the safety device in the sideplate. The safety can be removed.

2] I might have a hand. What's the overall height (length) of the hand?


Some background on the 1st and 2nd style side plate hammer blocks:

Cyl hand actuated hammer block safeties:

1st style side - plate mounted (pin & spring): The patent date of Dec 29, '14 shown on barrels after 1915, refers to the first style hammer block, operated by the hand via a pin in the side plate. It’s operated off the back of the hand, and also provides hand spring tension (no spring in trigger), and is visible in top right side of hammer channel.


This one is in a 38 M&P target from ~1917.

Photo by Driftwood Johnson

2nd style - leaf spring in side plate – (uses ramped Hand & early style hand spring in trigger):
M&P Hammer Safety Dilemma: I was correct stuck or broken leaf spring causes ‘carry-up’ problem (or removing 1st style pin if stuck).
Does the cyl have a "carry-up" problem; that is to say failing to lock up if hammer is cocked slowly in either single or double action? That's another symptom of inoperative leaf spring safety.

This one is in a 38 M&P from 1939.

Photo by Driftwood Johnson

See post #14 here: M&P Hammer Safety Dilemma: I was correct

Note: The right hand trigger shown in post #14 is a later trigger with the spring for the hand. The correct/original trigger with hand spring for the 2nd style leaf spring side plate safety is shown in post # 5 of that thread.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thanks Hondo44, my studies are only beginning. I have not fitted the side plate to the frame, as yet. I only have access to the standard 1917 hand without hammer block. I will take measurements, as suggested, and get back to you. The trigger and cylinder stop assembly function well without the hand. With the hand installed in the trigger slots it sticks 2/3 way thru its cycle towards the end of its travel in the frame cutout Is the hammer block hand thicker at its base than the non-safety hand? It seems to ride high on the trigger.

Which frame does your 1917 have- round top or flat top?

A round top will not have a hammer block. WW I military parts will work, and they are usually easy to get.

If the frame is a flat top, that sideplate is the correct type and you need corresponding hammer block parts.

Both are long actions and modern short action hammers and triggers are not a good match.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

delta,

The bases are different sizes.

There are three different pre war hands; the two shown in photos above for the two different hammer block safeties, and the earliest style with no hammer block safety.

The 1st style hand (with no hammer block) has two pins at the base of the hand and a spring in the front of the trigger with a lever to tension the hand (one pin hole just below the trigger pivot pin hole).

The 2nd style hand shown in 1st photo above has a single pin at the base and there is no hand spring in the trigger (no pin holes just below the trigger pivot pin hole). The pin in the side plate hammer block is spring loaded for the hand.

The 3rd style hand shown in the 2nd photo above has 2 two pins at the base of the hand and a spring in the rear of the trigger (two pin holes just below the trigger pivot pin hole), like post war triggers.

The 1st and 3rd style triggers will interchange.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

This is a photo of the hand with hammer block that I'm searching for that will match the side plate in the first photo. Can not seem to find one.

Attached Images

S&W 1917 with Hammer Block Safety.jpg (22.3 KB, 14 views)

Yes, same as in post #6, 2nd photo above.

The one I have is for a K frame, too short for your N frame.

Have you posted a want ad in the classifieds on the forum?

Other sources to try:

George Dye (at David Carroll's) for old Smith parts, sight blades, etc.

"Aonepawninc" http://stores.ebay.com/aonepawninc
has a bunch of old S&W parts for sale. I just ordered a complete hammer for my pre model 30 from them. They are very customer oriented and have very reasonable prices. 1/10/16

Dave Bennett: Parts and guns from 1900 up to 1970's.
e-Mail: [email protected]
Web Site: www.22ammobox.com

David Clements - Clements Custom Guns
PH: 276-238-8761
2766 Mt. Zion Rd.
Woodlawn, VA 24381
[email protected]
Clements Custom Guns

Jack First: Large selection of Pre- and Post-WWII parts. Sells working
parts to FFL dealers only.
Phone: 605-343-9544
Reproduced firing pins for 22/32 Kit Gun and HFT

Gun Parts Corp: Successor to Numrich Arms; many guns parts.
226 Williams Lane, West Hurley, NY 12491
Phone: 845-679-2417
e-Mail: [email protected]
Web Site: Gun Parts & Firearm Accessories | Numrich Gun Parts

Jim Horvath: Many parts for all S&W's (large and small) from 1860 up;
can reproduce parts.
e-Mail: [email protected]

Jeff Lee: Lee's Gun Parts (an extensive supply of gun parts, including S&W)Mike who works for Lee has 45 M25 barrels.
(Open to the public on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays).
3401 W. Pioneer, Suite 2, Irving, TX 75061
Phone: 972-790-0773
400 Bad Request

Jan Matlega: Parts for Pre-WWII S&W hand-ejectors.
Mail Address: 528 Eddy Glover
New Britain, CT 06053
Phone: 860-229-6872

Poppert's Gun Parts: http://www.poppertsgunparts.com/
P.O. Box 413
Glenside, PA 19038
Tel: 215-887-2391 Fax: 215-887-5816
Email: [email protected]

Charlie Pate: Provides screws (original & reproduction) for S&W Tip-ups and Top-breaks; author of books and articles on S&W guns.
Phone: 703-533-8057
e-Mail: [email protected]

Phil Saccacio: Phone: 540-456-6405
e-Mail: [email protected]

Dave Szilagy: Manufactures parts for older S&W's.
Mail Address: 3107 Electric, Lincoln Park, MI 48146
e-Mail: [email protected]

Mike Veilleux: Guns and Gun Parts
All Parts inc. for Pre- and Post-WWII S&W's.
Phone: 413-732-9938
e-Mail: [email protected]
Web Site: www.gunsnparts.com


S&W Parts; antique and new
[email protected]
Ph: 352 394-7412

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jerry Rogers sold his parts out years ago.
I think to Poppert's.

You never said if the frame is round top or flat.....

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Handetector, the frame is the flattop style . The previous owner said that it was a first Brazil contract 1937. It was striped of it's side plate and everything but the hammer and cylinder assembly. Here is a photo of what I have.

Attached Images

S&W Parts Gun 45acp.jpg (27.5 KB, 27 views)

Then that sideplate is the correct type.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I can't tell by the photo in the first post but is there a screw indent at the top of the side plate?

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James Redfield
LM #497

Yes, there's a slight recurved edge showing which is the screw seat.

It has to be a 5 screw plate with that hammer block mounted in it.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I have several patent date triggers, should I be looking for a "special" trigger specifically designed to accept the hand with hammer block? If so, what do I look for in design identification?

The answer to your question is yes.
The hand you show in post #10 has the correct ramp for your side plate, but it should have two pins in its base (notice the small hole for a pin that is missing) because it uses a trigger with a hand spring; #1 or #3 below:

My Post #9:

There are three different pre war hands; the two shown in photos above for the two different hammer block safeties, and the earliest style with no hammer block safety.

The 1st style hand (with no hammer block) has two pins at the base of the hand and a spring in the front of the trigger with a lever to tension the hand (one pin hole just below the trigger pivot pin hole).

The 2nd style hand shown in 1st photo above has a single pin at the base and there is no hand spring in the trigger (two pin holes just below the trigger pivot pin hole). The pin in the side plate hammer block is spring loaded for the hand.

The 3rd style hand shown in the 2nd photo above has 2 two pins at the base of the hand and a spring in the rear of the trigger (no pin holes just below the trigger pivot pin hole), like post war triggers.

The 1st and 3rd style triggers will interchange.

Therefore:

You need a ramped hand with two pins. You can salvage a small pin from any hand that has two pins. And use either a #1 or #2 trigger described above.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Got it. I have the right trigger. Now to find the right hand.!!! Thanks Jim.

Have you tried the sources I listed above?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Yes, Jeff in Texas may have one. I talked to him on the phone and I have a lead on one in CA. I should hear back by Tuesday. I will find one! Most of the parts people are out of prewar N frame parts.