I have a 4-inch Victory, serial V164252, S is stamped on crane and on star end of cylinder. It has a dark Parkerized finish. Correct grips but incorrect serial number. Lanyard swivel present. Left side of barrel stamped Smith & Wesson. Top of barrel Smith and Wesson, Springfield, et cetera, patent dates 08, 14 and 14.
Right side of barrel stamped 38 S&W special CTG. Right frame forward and above trigger Made in U.S.A. Side plate has usual logo, Trade Mark, Reg.U.S.Pat.Off.

This revolver has no other markings. I'm wondering about its approximate birth date, and where such an unmarked Victory would have likely seen service.

Any information greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Edited to add- since posting this, I have found marks I had not noticed before.

Pictures of the stampings, especially the unusual logo will help in dating and possibly a better identification of your revolver. Right now all I can tell you is that it was produced between 43 and 45.

Lots of Victory models shipped during the war didn't have the top strap roll marked. Most likely a DSC (Defense Service Corporation) revolver sent to help guard important industries or landmarks in the USA. Would like to see a picture. 164xxx is fairly early in the process. I'm guessing 1943. Lots of experts out there that know lots more than me, and I suspect they'll be along shortly . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Welcome! Fairly sure this was a 1943 production gun.

Presuming it has not been refinished, it may have been sold via the Defense Supplies Corporation (DSC) for use in a war production related industry, such as a plant security force. A letter of authenticity would give you its exact ship date and destination from the factory:

http://www.swhistoricalfoundation.co...quest_form.pdf

Hope this is helpful.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I think previous posts are most likely correct and this is a DSC contract gun. Another, statistically less likely possibility would be the US Maritime Commission, which also received guns without property stamp and seems to have gotten quite a few in that general serial range. It most likely shipped in November/December 1942.

The stampings are all standard, although it should have a small ordnance bomb symbol on the butt near the serial. All, not just military-shipped guns usually got that.

It's a DSC revolver. I'm pretty sure it shipped in 1942.

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Don Mundell

Welcome to the Forum. Close serial numbers were shipped in late 1942 and early 1943 and many were DSC guns. A factory historical letter will tell you where it was shipped, which can sometimes be a very interesting destination. Ed.

Thanks much. Ordnance bomb is present on butt...my oversight. I will do the S&W application for history. :-)

I list many Victories with SNs fairly close to V164252, all of which shipped in late 1942. Defense Supplies Corporation was a government agency which acted as an intermediary with S&W to obtain revolvers for essential domestic non-military users such as defense contractors which needed guns with which to arm their security guards and also various law enforcement agencies. Such essential users would order and pay for guns through DSC, and S&W shipped guns directly to such users. S&W letters will provide information as to where your gun was first shipped, such as to some city police department. DSC guns are typically found to be in better condition than similar guns which saw military service as they were not subjected to the rigors of combat. During WWII, it was difficult for an ordinary civilian to buy a new gun as virtually all output from about every gun manufacturer was going to the military.

This DSC thing seems sound, but I wouldn't rule out military use just because the top strap isn't marked US Navy, etc.

In the USAF in the 1960's, we had many Victory Models, as the supply of the official Combat Masterpiece wasn't yet adequate for the need. I'm fairly sure I carried some that lacked the Navy marking.

Of course, the Air Force may have procured some guns from non-Naval sources.

But my best guess is that some military-used Victory Models lacked that top strap marking.

If one is really curious, a Jinks letter is a necessity.

By late 1942, all military Victories should have either U. S. NAVY or UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamped on the topstrap. Unstamped revolver examples would have been DSC (mostly), U. S. Maritime Commission, and those relative few which went to the OSS via the Navy. I couldn't discount the possibility that there may have been a very few military revolvers which accidentally bypassed the topstrap stamping machine.

U.S.PROPERTY, not UNITED STATES PROPERTY. The spelled out version only appears on BSRs and the rare 2" military Victories.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

The changeover from UNITED STATES PROPERTY to U. S. PROPERTY stamping began at around V265xxx (which was around the time the U. S. NAVY stamping stopped) and was pretty well complete by V287xxx. And the very large majority of the Victories made for the U. S. military went to the Navy and used the U. S. NAVY stamp. Beginning in late 1941, all of the .38 S&W BSRs up to that time used the UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamp. I do have on my list list one 4" .38 Special Victory in the V247xxx range with the U. S. PROPERTY stamp. I cannot explain that one. The highest SN I show having a U. S. NAVY stamp is V2675xx. I also list a BSR having SN V287xxx with the UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamp

What is a BSR?

British Service Revolver

I like to letter the unmarked Victorys. Always interesting to see where they were shipped! I've had US Maritime Commission & United States Strategic Services (O.S.S.) guns. Kind of like a box of chocolates, "you never know what you're gonna get!"

Your gun most likely shipped Nov/Dec 1942 and we would definitely like to see some pics!

I have a similarly marked 4" Victory with a number just over 212xxx. I'm guessing an early 1943 ship date. I agree with Ken in that a non US Property marked Victory could have an interesting letter but haven't got around to it yet.

John

Keep in mind that early (1940-April 42) BSR's were NOT US Property. The Brits PAID for them. Only after the Lend-Lease guns began with dull gray finishes were there US Property concerns.

S&W owed the British govt. about a million dollars for the failed light rifle project, and were allowed to supply revolvers instead.

To the OP.
For an unmarked Victory, you sure got a lot of marks on it.

Sorry, my cat made me write that at gun point.

Resurrecting this thread, if I may. I believe the left top strap may have been ground down. I understand US Property and the 3 initials were usually stamped so lightly that polishing them off was often practiced by people believing it illegal to possess US Property. The left one is a little wider and flatter than the right.

Since posting in 2017, I have re-examined the gun and see there is an E5 stamped right side of grip frame ear the bottom. Can't find anything on this E5 stamp. Anyone?

It could be an assembler's, fitter's or inspector's stamp.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I can't help with the E5 stamp but it wasn't just a belief--it WAS illegal to own U.S. PROPERTY marked guns.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Do you know when that “officially” became moot?

Obviously, the government happily sold guns such as the DCM and later CMP 1911‘s with the UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamp to civilians, starting in the 1960s if I remember correctly, without removing or in any way canceling the property marking. And since these were freely transferable, by that time the cat was out of the bag, and possession certainly not prosecutable in any way.

In 1958 the U.S. government "released excess quantities of the arms it was to replace." Sales ended in 1967 with the political winds stirred up by the assassinations in the 1960s. We also got the GCA of 1968 out of that, of course. Sales of rifles resumed at some point but until last year I don't think any handguns were being sold. In the late 1940s and early 1950s, U.S. PROPERTY marked guns were still illegal for civilians to own.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

High time for pictures.

It would be interesting to establish the actual legal basis for this. I‘m also curious whether in that respect guns were treated differently in law back then from lots of other surplus articles with various markings indication previous military possession, at a time when guns not falling under the NFA generally weren‘t legally treated differently than tools, mess kits, can openers, or backpacks.

Can I ask about one of mine? Letter says shipped to Springfield Armory 8/19/42 as a "Navy Contract" piece. No marking on top strap. Was the purchaser SA or were they distributing these to government sources? Should it have some marking on top strap?

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No life story has happy end.

July, 1948:

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

In 1942 Springfield Armory was a government source...They produced and reworked arms for the American military from 1777 to 1968...The present day Springfield Armory was established in 1974 as a commercial concern......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

So why would a brand new VM be shipped to them in 1942?

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No life story has happy end.

Springfield Armory was simply a government arsenal, the closest to the S&W factory, just a few miles down the street. I‘m pretty sure they didn‘t specifically buy your gun.

Unless your letter specifies a one-gun shipment, it was most likely 100 or 500 guns for some East Coast naval destinations which, for whatever military-bureaucratic reasons, were routed through that armory, like lots of other equipment.

Looking at Pate‘s list of procurement notes, your gun belongs with the 65,000 early Navy-direct contract guns of which he notes that “some have no government markings”.

Thanks. Apparently mine is one of the some.

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No life story has happy end.

An old college friend of mine owns his granddaddy's 1911. Granddaddy was a Army officer in WW I and purchased his sidearm at the end of the war. I have handled the .45 and seen the paperwork.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Ditto for a 1911,with paperwork, that a friend's Army officer father purchased at the end of WW2.
Remarkable shape, too good for his hell and back experience, but we learned that he had been issued another one early on, and that was in such a sorry state after all it went through, they issued another.
(My father, a WW2 SeaBee CPO in the PI, really wanted to bring home his 1911, but it was impossible.)

When I originally posted that my Victory is unmarked, I was thinking of the lack of US Property stamp and no "P" on the left near the hammer. There are some marks. on the side of the grip frame. I'll try to post some photos, but that will be a newly acquired skill if I succeed.