Rusty, etched 3" Baby Chiefs -- hammer down

two-bit cowboy · #1 12-30-2017, 01:09 PM

Picked it up yesterday afternoon.

Took "before" photos this morning, then began to fiddle a bit, to the gun's detriment. The screw holding the cylinder release broke when I tried to reinstall (very gentle on the touch, didn't even go in half way when it broke). All that rust tells a tale, eh?

After a wee bit of cleaning with my usual spray and a little gentle rubbing with bronze wool I think I've broken the code on the inscription:

To
Lt. Kousky
From Men
106 pct.
12-24-1953

The inscriber seemed to have a problem with his/her work, nearly adding an "e" after the "u" in the lieutenant's name and almost making the "n" of "Men" an "m."

I searched Kousky, and there are many. When I searched Kouesky I got the same list as when I tried Kousky; there were no listings for Kouesky.

Today the 106th precinct is in Queens, NYC.

Here are a few better photos. All the numbers match. I couldn't find Kroil in Lander yesterday -- the search continues.

Cheers,

FifthWheel · #2 12-30-2017, 01:29 PM

Congratulations Bob. I'd like to find a 3" some day.

6518John · #3 12-30-2017, 01:46 PM

I would use ATF/Acetone 50-50. You can find those two anywhere. There is an article/study saying it works better that Kroil.

“For all of you that are mechanically inclined..... Penetrating Oils Compared A study done by Machinist's Workshop magazine in their April 2007 issue looked at different penetrating oils to see which one did the best job of removing a rusted bolt by measuring the pounds of torque required to loosen the bolt once treated. If the study was scientifically accurate, it turns out a home brew works best! Here's the summary of the test results:

Penetrating oil .......... Average load

None ..................... 516 pounds

WD-40 .................... 238 pounds

PB Blaster ............... 214 pounds

Liquid Wrench ............ 127 pounds

Kano Kroil ............... 106 pounds

ATF-Acetone mix.............53 pounds

The Automatic Transmission fluid (ATF)-Acetone mix was a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note the "home brew" was better than any commercial product in this one particular test. A local machinist group mixed up a batch and all now use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is about as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price.”

jsfricks · #4 12-30-2017, 01:50 PM

Congrats Bob, at least I was pretty close with my guess on what it said. When I get one in that condition the first thing I do is remove the grips, put the gun in a 1 gallon ziplock bag and coat it heavily in Kroil, turning it several times throughout the day and let it soak for at least 24 hours. That will usually lower your chances of stuck and broken screws and make using bronze wool to take off the rust have a lot better results. That should be a fun little project to get it back to shooting condition and close to its former glory. Do you plan to letter it?

tlawler · #5 12-30-2017, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6518John

I would use ATF/Acetone 50-50. You can find those two anywhere. There is an article/study saying it works better that Kroil.

“For all of you that are mechanically inclined..... Penetrating Oils Compared A study done by Machinist's Workshop magazine in their April 2007 issue looked at different penetrating oils to see which one did the best job of removing a rusted bolt by measuring the pounds of torque required to loosen the bolt once treated. If the study was scientifically accurate, it turns out a home brew works best! Here's the summary of the test results:

Penetrating oil .......... Average load

None ..................... 516 pounds

WD-40 .................... 238 pounds

PB Blaster ............... 214 pounds

Liquid Wrench ............ 127 pounds

Kano Kroil ............... 106 pounds

ATF-Acetone mix.............53 pounds

The Automatic Transmission fluid (ATF)-Acetone mix was a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note the "home brew" was better than any commercial product in this one particular test. A local machinist group mixed up a batch and all now use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is about as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price.”

Interesting results. I’ve always sworn by Blaster in the past, but use Kroil quite a bit where odor is a problem. I’ll have to try the ATF-acetone mix. In the Navy we used “oil of wintergreen” or “wintergreen oil”; not sure exactly what it was, but we would get it from the corpsman. I think he used it for liniments or something. Any other Navy guys out there remember using it and what it consisted of exactly?

6518John · #6 12-30-2017, 02:14 PM

I first learned about the mixture here:

Penetrating oil

Texas Star · #7 12-30-2017, 03:27 PM

It's such a shame that whoever got the gun after the recipient's death (?) didn't take better care of it.

SDH · #8 12-30-2017, 03:52 PM

Pretty rugged... will be interesting to see in after photos.
Do you have a whole hammer.

jhnttrpp · #9 12-30-2017, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6518John

I would use ATF/Acetone 50-50. You can find those two anywhere. There is an article/study saying it works better that Kroil.

“For all of you that are mechanically inclined..... Penetrating Oils Compared A study done by Machinist's Workshop magazine in their April 2007 issue looked at different penetrating oils to see which one did the best job of removing a rusted bolt by measuring the pounds of torque required to loosen the bolt once treated. If the study was scientifically accurate, it turns out a home brew works best! Here's the summary of the test results:

Penetrating oil .......... Average load

None ..................... 516 pounds

WD-40 .................... 238 pounds

PB Blaster ............... 214 pounds

Liquid Wrench ............ 127 pounds

Kano Kroil ............... 106 pounds

ATF-Acetone mix.............53 pounds

The Automatic Transmission fluid (ATF)-Acetone mix was a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note the "home brew" was better than any commercial product in this one particular test. A local machinist group mixed up a batch and all now use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is about as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price.”

I can't imagine how they were able to do a realistic comparison. I'd love to read about the procedure used. Is that available any where

Hondo44 · #10 12-30-2017, 07:58 PM

SOURCE: April/May 2007 edition of MACHINIST'S WORKSHOP scientific test of penetrating products to remove rust and measure the force required to loosen rusted-solid test devices.

M29since14 · #11 12-30-2017, 08:10 PM

That’s interesting. Never knew there were any 3-inch Baby Chiefs.

two-bit cowboy · #12 12-30-2017, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6518John

I would use ATF/Acetone 50-50.

Thanks for sharing that. I b'lieve I'll give that home brew a go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsfricks

Congrats Bob, at least I was pretty close with my guess on what it said. .... That should be a fun little project to get it back to shooting condition and close to its former glory. Do you plan to letter it?

I'm looking forward to digging in. Thanks. Yes, I will certainly letter this one -- I'm guessing one of those famous NY shops, but we'll see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDH

Pretty rugged... will be interesting to see in after photos.
Do you have a whole hammer.

Not yet, but I'm hopeful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Star

It's such a shame that whoever got the gun after the recipient's death (?) didn't take better care of it.

Well, we don't know that the lieutenant isn't the one who didn't take care of it, and we don't know whether he's still alive! We all know what happens when we jump to conclusions (assume).

Quote:

Originally Posted by M29since14

That’s interesting. Never knew there were any 3-inch Baby Chiefs.

I have no idea how many, but the others on the forum are sure in better shape than this one. I wouldn't have paid what it would take to buy a "nice" one so I'm happy with having this one.

Thanks for all the comments!

6518John · #13 12-30-2017, 08:45 PM

Fully immerse it in a sealed container and soak it for a week. I think you will be amazed by the results. Plus you can easily find ATF and Acetone anywhere there is a gas station and hardware store. The only way I have ever been able to get Kroil is to order it online.

I soaked a log chain in a 5 gallon bucket that had fallen off the back of a truck and into a mudhole for almost a year. Some of the links were rusted solid. I pulled it out after a week and dragged it behind an ATV on a well graveled road for a mile or two, then soaked another week. Chain is almost as good as new.

I made twice the amount of Kroil for less than half the price and it works twice as well according the torque pressures. I considered that a win. That is all we use on the farm now.

Texas Star · #14 12-31-2017, 01:06 AM

I am reasonably sure that a NYPD Lt. alive and with that rank in 1953 isn't living or really competent today.He'd probably be over 100! Possible, but if you find him alive, please let us know.

In the meantime, I'm sticking with my feeling that he'd maintain the gun and be proud of it.

Maybe he retired and stored it in a damp basement. We'll probably never know.

Your best best is to contact NYPD personnel and see if they'll tell you anything.

The gun may have been stolen and badly cared for. No idea who broke the hammer spur.

Let us know what you learn. And good luck with your restoration.

les.b · #15 12-31-2017, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlawler

Interesting results. I’ve always sworn by Blaster in the past, but use Kroil quite a bit where odor is a problem. I’ll have to try the ATF-acetone mix. In the Navy we used “oil of wintergreen” or “wintergreen oil”; not sure exactly what it was, but we would get it from the corpsman. I think he used it for liniments or something. Any other Navy guys out there remember using it and what it consisted of exactly?

tlawler:

On my ship we always had good results with "relative bearing grease".

( Sorry, that's an old Navy joke.... New guys on a ship were sent in quest of the elusive "relative bearing grease.)

Two-bit cowboy, that's a grand gun you have there!!

Best Regards, Les

Wyo · #16 12-31-2017, 01:48 AM

Now that’s a gun with some character. Look forward to seeing the “after” photos! Are ya gonna shoot it?

tlawler · #17 12-31-2017, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by les.b

New guys on a ship were sent in quest of the elusive "relative bearing grease”

I actually fell for getting sent to procure sound powered phone batteries just after I checked aboard my ship

I looked up wintergreen oil and it’s Methyl salicylate. AKA the active ingredient in Ben Gay. We would get it in liquid form from our corpsman and use an eye dropper to place a few drops around a stubborn and rusted fastener. Surely there’s some other snipes on here that used it that way as well.

two-bit cowboy · #18 12-31-2017, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Star

Your best best is to contact NYPD personnel and see if they'll tell you anything.

Let us know what you learn. And good luck with your restoration.

I've looked up the 106 and plan to contact them, but my days in the 'Force make me believe they won't divulge "personnel" info. Hope I'm wrong.

I'll post anything I'm able to discover, and thanks!

two-bit cowboy · #19 12-31-2017, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by les.b

tlawler:

On my ship we always had good results with "relative bearing grease".

( Sorry, that's an old Navy joke.... New guys on a ship were sent in quest of the elusive "relative bearing grease.)

Two-bit cowboy, that's a grand gun you have there!!

Best Regards, Les

Thanks Les!

I love military jokes. When we'd get a new guy in the control tower we'd tell him he needed to get a broom and go sweep the dust off the "approach path." Actually had a couple of gullible Gomers who went out near the approach end of the runway with a broom so we'd call the Security Police and get them to go "jack the guy up" for being too close to the runway. Great fun. Amazing what mischief you can create on boring Sunday afternoons when the jets aren't flying!

two-bit cowboy · #20 12-31-2017, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyo

Now that’s a gun with some character. Look forward to seeing the “after” photos! Are ya gonna shoot it?

Howdy Wyo!

Thanks. Poor old thing's been rode hard and put away wet, but yes, I plan to shoot it. Cylinder's a wee bit sloppy, but the action is creamy smooth.

Hondo44 · #21 12-31-2017, 03:07 AM

We'd send them for a bucket of prop wash.

Texas Star · #22 12-31-2017, 07:12 AM

In Newfoundland, we warned new men to beware of snow snakes, for which we had no anti-venin.

Hondo44 · #23 12-31-2017, 07:59 AM

Bob,

One other tip with the 50/50 ATF/Acetone. Agitation of the sealed container makes it work faster.

My first experience with it:

I became a believer when given a Sharps rifle relic to fix; you know, a relic relative to firearms is a gun dug out of the dirt after years and years, a corroded chunk of steel, as in a bunch of parts frozen solid. That Sharps is now operational with new springs and wood, and shootable. Factory stampings not completely rusted away are now readable again. It was soaked for two months in a sealed container that was also agitated by being driven around in the back of a pickup. The other way to agitate to speed it up is an electro vibrator. Or if a small container, set on your brass tumbler.

Acetone has very 'light ends', in plain English that means it evaporates readily as we know. And will need replenishing unless the part with soaking solution is in a sealed container. A piece of schedule 40, 4" plastic drain conduit with end caps glued on both ends, long enough for the barreled action. Fill the container as full as possible to eliminate air space and evaporation. I also made the tube a little longer than needed, so after cutting off the cap to check progress, if not soaked long enough I could glue on another cap. Once it's sealed, confirm it won't leak.

The guy I restored it for actually bent the lever trying to work the action open when it was frozen/rusted solid! The action didn't budge. So I still marvel at how smooth it operates after the soaking treatment. The metal is so clean, a plain bare gunmetal gray.

If the gun still has blue on it, it's unaffected.

824tsv · #24 12-31-2017, 08:50 AM

"Your best best is to contact NYPD personnel and see if they'll tell you anything."

My 2 cents is to contact a currently serving NYPD Forum member and inquire if he has a contact with someone in NYPD's Human Resources Dept who can look up the information on this Officer.

21b o3 · #25 12-31-2017, 09:42 AM

I'm gonna have to back up what 824 said, hopefully someone on here is NYPD and can help you out, it would be much easier than breaking through the bureaucracy of a huge dep't like NYPD.
As far as the hammer goes, I would leave it as is. Unless obviously broken off, it was likely bobbed by the original owner to make it a more practical back up piece to carry in a pants or jacket pocket and just adds tonthe character of the revolver. These are the types of guns that fascinate me with the stories they could tell, wondering what they had been through in a previous owners hands. The original owner must have been well liked and respected by the men at the 106th, otherwise there was no way to get bunch of cops to pitch in the $$$ for such a nice Christmas gift (trust me, I know!)

two-bit cowboy · #26 12-31-2017, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21b o3

As far as the hammer goes, I would leave it as is. Unless obviously broken off, ....

Thanks for your post -- I enjoyed the read!

The hammer is broken off and has a very jagged edge. I would never consider having the Baby refinished, but I would like to return it to its original mechanical glory, and a forum member was kind enough to offer to send a spare hammer to me.

iPac · #27 12-31-2017, 05:37 PM

I really like that old gun.

Despite how it came to be this way, I would just give it a thorough clean up and get rid of that rust. Then correct any minor mechanical issues that may be at play. Hopefully the rust did not enter the internals, the rest should clean up fine with some elbow grease.

I can already see it now.....

may have some silver patches of blue worn character, but still a lot of luster left. The hammer just fully bobbed properly and the DA tuned to a nice smooth light pull. I would keep the same stocks and everything. Heck, would make a great carry piece. Something a little more special and out of the ordinary.

two-bit cowboy · #28 12-31-2017, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iPac

I really like that old gun.

....
I can already see it now.....

Thanks for your post.

You paint a mighty powerful picture with your words.

two-bit cowboy · #29 02-26-2018, 12:34 PM

This little Chiefs soaked in the suggested 50-50 blend of auto trans fluid and acetone for more than a month. I fished it out of its bath on Saturday and started with the bronze wool. Just as many of you said, the transformation was fantastic and rewarding.

It'll take several posts to show you what happened.

two-bit cowboy · #30 02-26-2018, 12:36 PM

A few more shots.

two-bit cowboy · #31 02-26-2018, 12:48 PM

The last bunch, including the sn you usually only see through a cylinder hole.

Now to see whether I can install the new hammer (with thanks to "linde").

6518John · #32 02-26-2018, 12:50 PM

^^^^^Simply amazing!

S&W ucla · #33 02-26-2018, 12:57 PM

Well Done!! Really neat the way you did before and after shots, Thanks!

Jim Watson · #34 02-26-2018, 01:11 PM

Now the little gun just looks well worn, the blue matching the wood, instead of neglected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Star

In Newfoundland, we warned new men to beware of snow snakes, for which we had no anti-venin.

But did you have the spaghetti with India ink "eyes" to show them?

gwpercle · #35 02-26-2018, 01:43 PM

Very Nice !
Some may not want to believe that ATF-acetone (50-50) works...but this shows you what it can do.

Another soaking formula for rust is equal parts
ATF - acetone - Kerosene. This one is good also.

Your little Chief is Looking Good !
Gary

catadjuster · #36 02-26-2018, 03:01 PM

One of my favorite things to do is to resurrect an abused gun. As many times as I see it, the final results always surprise me.

Very well done!

kthom · #37 02-26-2018, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by les.b

tlawler:

On my ship we always had good results with "relative bearing grease".

( Sorry, that's an old Navy joke.... New guys on a ship were sent in quest of the elusive "relative bearing grease.)

Two-bit cowboy, that's a grand gun you have there!!

Best Regards, Les

Made me smile, Les! In my artillery outfit, we sent the new guys to get a five gallon bucket of OD Green and White striped paint. Most went without question. You know about paint. If it moves, paint it. If it don't move, salute it! LOL!
And I agree with you about that dandy old revolver. And didn't it shine up nice?! Way to go, two-bit cowboy!

les.b · #38 02-26-2018, 09:51 PM

Thanks, Ken!!

Hey, Bob...that is quite a job you did on that really nice old Chiefs!! Thanks so much for sharing with us. I have experimented with the bronze wool and soak before, but never let it sit for a month!! I think you are into something there. That extra time must have allowed the soulotion to penetrate more deeply, and actually start to lift the rust and further loosen it. What a super job. And I'm with iPac, I think it would look super with those original stocks, maybe freshened up just a little. And I'm torn between replacing the hammer with a period intact one, and fully bobbing and smoothing the existing one. I have been hanging around over on the Colt (oops) forum a little bit lately, and have seen several factory bobbed hammers on Detective Specials and even an older Pocket Positive, and the factory cut the hammer spur, and then checkered the top of the hammer, so that you can start it back with the trigger, and then catch it with your thumb, and still cock it for SA Fire. That would be an option for the bobbed hammer.....just thinking out loud.

Best Regards, Les

chiefdave · #39 02-26-2018, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by les.b

tlawler:

On my ship we always had good results with "relative bearing grease".

( Sorry, that's an old Navy joke.... New guys on a ship were sent in quest of the elusive "relative bearing grease.)

Two-bit cowboy, that's a grand gun you have there!!

Best Regards, Les

We airdales would soak rusty stuff in a bucket of prop wash then hang the item on a flight line to drip dry.

chiefdave · #40 02-26-2018, 10:19 PM

Any firearm that can be traced to a specific individual is always special. Super find.

two-bit cowboy · #41 02-26-2018, 11:24 PM

Thanks to all for the kind words. I appreciate every one.

6518John gets as much credit as me for how it turned out. He was the first to suggest the ingredients in the Baby's bath, and his and Hondo44's anecdotes were pretty convincing.

Les, lots of firsts here for me. I'm usually like the little kitten that's attracted to "pretty and shiny" things. I've never considered taking on a project like this, but when I saw that it was a 3" Baby on the auction my OCD kicked in, and I just had to.

I've never loosened a side plate screw before, much less taken off a side plate and pulled stuff out of the innards. So I can tell you the month was not a planned thing. I applied a bit of patience, but procrastination (fear to get started) is really why I left it that long. Also, I ordered the proper screw driver set from Brownells while I was waiting.

I pulled the old hammer today and got the tiny pin out that holds the black teeter-totter in the hammer's base (photo) (I learned tonight it's called the sear). But when I tried to install the spring and sear in the new hammer I discovered the new one doesn't have a detent hole for the spring to sit in. I don't have the machinery to drill the detent so I'll take it to my smith. If for some reason he can't drill the hole, then I might follow your idea about having him properly bob the original one. I'm really in hopes he can drill the new one because I have another Baby (2") in the shop right now for a full DAO treatment so I'd really like to return this one to its original configuration if I can.

I do intend to retain the original stocks, and I'll probably steal one of my Tyler-T grip extenders from another Baby that doesn't see much use.

Thanks again for all the compliments. This has been far more rewarding than pulling a safe queen out for ogling.

Cheers

jsfricks · #42 02-27-2018, 03:40 AM

Great job! Turned out really well! I got to hand it to you, a month of soaking. I’m itching to get started after a 24 hour soak, I’d never got through a whole month.

Skeptic 9c · #43 02-27-2018, 04:35 AM

Does the NYPD have a museum? Yes!

New York City Police Museum |
WELCOME. Incorporated in 1998, The New York City Police Museum is dedicated to preserving the history of the New York City Police Department, the world's largest and most famous police service. The Museum strives to be an accessible resource for all the communities of the city of New York. Through its exhibitions

You might try contacting them. Such places have different rules on providing information and might also do things "informally."

Geoff
Who googles and has visited the Cleveland Police Museum, which is staffed by retired cops.

S&WsRsweet · #44 02-27-2018, 06:11 AM

Great find and it's good to know you will save that one and bring it back ,those guys must have really loved their lieutenant .I have used on occasion a mixture called Ed's red it contains ATF ,acetone,kerosene ,be careful as the ATF can be tough on some rubber and plastic .

raljr1 · #45 02-27-2018, 07:12 AM

Nicely done....gives me new ideas about guns with challenged finishes.

blockislander · #46 02-27-2018, 08:32 AM

Does anyone know if you can use this atf formula on parkerized guns?

2152hq · #47 02-27-2018, 10:33 AM

Very nice project and it cleaned up well too.
FWIW, the engraving on the side plate was done with a pantograph machine, not by hand engraving (hammer & chisel or by graver).

That was and to a point still is a very common way of marking items.
The old style rotary pantograph such as used here used a tiny cutter at high speed. The pattern letters and numbers were set up in a tray and traced with the stylus.
The patterns were usually of a size around 3"h x 2"w. The script style letters lined up well to make the wording appear as written script w/ versions of some letters for different applications coming off of other letters.
Any number of font variations were available with the machines. They were quick to use when marking equipment and other items in a uniform and neat manner.
The Mall engraving kiosks made use of the same type of machines through the 70's and 80's. Computer operated machines have taked the place of the hand operated tracer stylus machines pretty much.

To have made the mistakes in the cutting was to have simply layed down the wrong pattern letters in the first place. It only cuts what the stylus traces.

Maybe a group of 10-7 cops used the property office pantograph marking machine after hours to make up the Lt's special gift.
There's a bit of learning curve involved with everything.
Nobody'll notice at the party!

Hope you are successful in finding some history on the Lt and the revolver.

two-bit cowboy · #48 02-27-2018, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic 9c

Does the NYPD have a museum? Yes!

You might try contacting them. Such places have different rules on providing information and might also do things "informally."

Geoff

Thanks for that, Geoff. Great lead!

two-bit cowboy · #49 02-27-2018, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2152hq

FWIW, the engraving on the side plate was done with a pantograph machine, not by hand engraving (hammer & chisel or by graver).

I've followed your writings on other threads about the different engraving methods. Thanks for adding your experienced tidbits to this thread. Goes a long way to help tie the bundle together.

Wyo · #50 02-27-2018, 11:33 PM

Wow! I cannot believe how well that turned out. That is a potion I will have to remember. I still want to know how it shoots, though!