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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 03-06-2018, 09:32 PM
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Victory Models Marked "U.S.N. PROPERTY NOD. 1543" Victory Models Marked "U.S.N. PROPERTY NOD. 1543" Victory Models Marked "U.S.N. PROPERTY NOD. 1543" Victory Models Marked "U.S.N. PROPERTY NOD. 1543" Victory Models Marked "U.S.N. PROPERTY NOD. 1543"  
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Default Victory Models Marked "U.S.N. PROPERTY NOD. 1543"

Gentlemen:

A recent thread asked about 4 inch, .38 Special Victory Model serialed V73, an early number, with unusual markings. Here is the link to that thread: Victory Base
The original poster was evidently unable to post pics of this gun.

I have some thoughts on this gun's markings, and others, and wanted to toss this out for discussion without appending it to the earlier thread.

First, V73 is not the only example I am aware of that is so marked. Indeed, the Victory Model Database reveals three other guns marked in a similar fashion. Those are V1170, V2033 and V2500.

I think it is not insignificant that all four guns so marked are in relatively close serial number proximity to each other. From the Database I estimate that they likely shipped in the July 1942 time frame. At that time the factory was producing 1000 revolvers per day, so these four were likely manufactured and shipped within 48 hours of each other. It is within the realm of possibility that they all went to the same destination and, thus, received identical markings.

The markings in question are odd for several reasons, but the one that leaps out is that they are oriented aslant at about a 45 degree angle on the left frame below the cylinder latch. Perhaps this was because it was difficult to fit the entire marking on the frame in a level orientation.

Although the assumption is that these guns were shipped to the US Navy, none of the four had factory letter data and, thus, it cannot be said for certain that any or all were, in fact, Navy shipments.

In my Victory archives I located photos I had saved of the latter three guns. Here is V1170. (I did not record the source of any of the photos.)



Here is V2033, a gun that was later refinished to nickle.



And here is V2500.



All of the markings appear to be uniform in their style and application. I suspect that the same facility (or person) marked all of them.

Another oddity is that the NOD is marked with only a single period following the D, rather than N.O.D. or NOD with no following period.

The next obvious question is the meaning of the NOD acronym. A reasonable guess might be Naval Ordnance Depot. However, I have not been able to establish that the term "Naval Ordnance Depot" was in use during WW2. The Navy operated Naval Ammunition Depots, but I have not been able to locate "Naval Ordnance Depot" as a term used in WW2.
Perhaps it is a post-war term, or maybe it just means something other than what I have speculated here.

What about the number "1543"? I think we rule that out as a rack number since all four bear the same number. Perhaps the 1543 is part of the title of the facility itself. But where are the other 1542 such facilities?

Which brings us to the question of greatest significance: Is the marking a legitimate Navy marking at all or simply a fiction dreamed up by an imaginative gun faker? Regrettably, I can't answer that one. The comment in the thread on V73 mentioned that the gun was located in California, a state which once had a flourishing cottage industry of Victory fakers. The fact that a gun is now located in California is not, of course, at all sufficient to condemn it as a fake, but one wonders. For me, the jury is still out on whether this marking is genuine or not.

It is a bit of a mystery. The Database has helped us again by aggregating this information and allowing us to begin this discussion.

If anyone has any better or different information than what I have posited here, I'd invite you to post it. In particular, I would like to see if any of these 4 revolvers have factory or SWHF letters proving shipment to a Navy destination and where that destination was located.
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Old 03-06-2018, 10:32 PM
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Have never encountered a marking like that before. Interested in some
of the resident Victory experts to weigh in here as well.
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Old 03-06-2018, 11:25 PM
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# V 73 has exactly the same markings. Tried sending pictures to Charlie's Email they didn't go through.

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Old 03-07-2018, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ordnanceguy View Post
Gentlemen:

A recent thread asked about 4 inch, .38 Special Victory Model serialed V73, an early number, with unusual markings. Here is the link to that thread: Victory Base
The original poster was evidently unable to post pics of this gun.

I have some thoughts on this gun's markings, and others, and wanted to toss this out for discussion without appending it to the earlier thread.

First, V73 is not the only example I am aware of that is so marked. Indeed, the Victory Model Database reveals three other guns marked in a similar fashion. Those are V1170, V2033 and V2500.

I think it is not insignificant that all four guns so marked are in relatively close serial number proximity to each other. From the Database I estimate that they likely shipped in the July 1942 time frame. At that time the factory was producing 1000 revolvers per day, so these four were likely manufactured and shipped within 48 hours of each other. It is within the realm of possibility that they all went to the same destination and, thus, received identical markings.

The markings in question are odd for several reasons, but the one that leaps out is that they are oriented aslant at about a 45 degree angle on the left frame below the cylinder latch. Perhaps this was because it was difficult to fit the entire marking on the frame in a level orientation.

Although the assumption is that these guns were shipped to the US Navy, none of the four had factory letter data and, thus, it cannot be said for certain that any or all were, in fact, Navy shipments.

In my Victory archives I located photos I had saved of the latter three guns. Here is V1170. (I did not record the source of any of the photos.)



Here is V2033, a gun that was later refinished to nickle.



And here is V2500.



All of the markings appear to be uniform in their style and application. I suspect that the same facility (or person) marked all of them.

Another oddity is that the NOD is marked with only a single period following the D, rather than N.O.D. or NOD with no following period.

The next obvious question is the meaning of the NOD acronym. A reasonable guess might be Naval Ordnance Depot. However, I have not been able to establish that the term "Naval Ordnance Depot" was in use during WW2. The Navy operated Naval Ammunition Depots, but I have not been able to locate "Naval Ordnance Depot" as a term used in WW2.
Perhaps it is a post-war term, or maybe it just means something other than what I have speculated here.

What about the number "1543"? I think we rule that out as a rack number since all four bear the same number. Perhaps the 1543 is part of the title of the facility itself. But where are the other 1542 such facilities?

Which brings us to the question of greatest significance: Is the marking a legitimate Navy marking at all or simply a fiction dreamed up by an imaginative gun faker? Regrettably, I can't answer that one. The comment in the thread on V73 mentioned that the gun was located in California, a state which once had a flourishing cottage industry of Victory fakers. The fact that a gun is now located in California is not, of course, at all sufficient to condemn it as a fake, but one wonders. For me, the jury is still out on whether this marking is genuine or not.

It is a bit of a mystery. The Database has helped us again by aggregating this information and allowing us to begin this discussion.

If anyone has any better or different information than what I have posited here, I'd invite you to post it. In particular, I would like to see if any of these 4 revolvers have factory or SWHF letters proving shipment to a Navy destination and where that destination was located.
On page 21 of the Summer 2017 S&WCA Journal (right column under The Fort Mason Shipment) mention is made of a billing to the Springfield Ordnance District (SOD).....

Might there have been a N...... Ordnance District (NOD)?
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Old 03-07-2018, 03:59 AM
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My thinking is that the apparently nonsensical nature of the inscription tends to speak against a fake.

So does the single period Charlie pointed out, which in proper English would mean that this is an abbreviation, not an acronym, and we have to look for a term or name starting with NOD.... Unfortunately, I havenít been able to get web searches for such terms or names to reveal even remotely promising candidates.

Of course, if these were inscribed at the same location and this is the creative mind of some individual armorer at work, it could mean Naval Ordnance or whatever.

The number is also unproductive. I suspected a ship, but all Iíve found was an Army LCU with the number 1543, and that wasnít put into service until 1954.

Anyone able to produce this text would have had no trouble producing a red-lettered Navy text instead, a fake much more likely to be profitable.
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Old 03-07-2018, 06:11 AM
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According to an online acronym finder NOd can refer to: Contract Written by Secretary of Navys Office. I suppose it would be an over simplification that these revolvers were ordered by the Navy for review purposes under contract or order number 1543.
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Old 03-07-2018, 06:56 AM
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The letters are perfect. Lined up straight, evenly cut, perfect in every way. I doubt they were done by hand. They look factory.

What would have been used to cut such nice letters with such square bottoms? They are not stamped just stamped in.
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Old 03-07-2018, 09:14 AM
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I don't know if it means anything but #V73 came from San Francisco where Ft Mason is.
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Old 03-07-2018, 09:51 AM
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A few observations that may (or may not) be relevant:

1. There was no Naval Ordnance District. The Navy's procurement agencies were the Bureau of Ordnance, abbreviated as BuOrd and the Bureau of Supplies and Accounts, abbreviated BuS&A.

2. The markings aren't factory but appear to be cut be a pantograph machine very similar to the NYMI and "Red Navy" guns.

3. Prior to WWII Navy contracts had No or Nos prefixes. During WWII these changed to NX.

4. It would be helpful if one of the owners actually lettered one of these so perhaps we could learn the destination.
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Old 03-07-2018, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Targets Guy View Post
On page 21 of the Summer 2017 S&WCA Journal (right column under The Fort Mason Shipment) mention is made of a billing to the Springfield Ordnance District (SOD).....

Might there have been a N...... Ordnance District (NOD)?
Could NOD represent NAVAL Ordnance District?
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Old 03-07-2018, 10:50 AM
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Thanks for the comments, guys.

BTW, I failed to mention in my original post that I had come up with another candidate, the Nansemond Ordnance Depot, in Virginia. However, I discarded that as a possibility because it was an Army facility, not Navy, and these guns clearly point to a Navy connection.

So, I am still scratching my head on this one.
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Old 03-07-2018, 12:33 PM
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Charlie
I just spoke to the Inside Sales Supervisor of a major United States Navy pump supplier. They have supplied the United States Navy with pumps since 1898. She said the NOD was for Naval Ordnance District. But, like you, she's not sure that those initials were used in WWII. Is the the only place they are stamped? I know Smith & Wesson stamped them U.S.Navy but not there. I think that stamp was applied by the Navy.
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Old 03-07-2018, 12:39 PM
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Interesting. Being a firefighter I have dabbled in firefighting equipment odds and ends. I had at one point a vintage (1940's) hose nozzle with a base mount pivot that I picked up at a federal surplus sale. It was marked NOD 1543 on the pivot mount and nozzle. I did research at the time I had it and came up with information that had me convinced that it was part of a US Navy contract from February, 1941 that was with the Seattle-Tacoma Shipbuilding Corp. to the tune of $5,000,000. Perhaps this is a lead someone would wish to follow.
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Old 03-07-2018, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
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Is the the only place they are stamped? I know Smith & Wesson stamped them U.S.Navy but not there. I think that stamp was applied by the Navy.
Hi Don:

Thanks for your message. I agree that the markings were applied after the guns left the factory. These markings on the left frame appear to be the only ones on the guns that are not factory applied.
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Old 03-07-2018, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
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Interesting. Being a firefighter I have dabbled in firefighting equipment odds and ends. I had at one point a vintage (1940's) hose nozzle with a base mount pivot that I picked up at a federal surplus sale. It was marked NOD 1543 on the pivot mount and nozzle. I did research at the time I had it and came up with information that had me convinced that it was part of a US Navy contract from February, 1941 that was with the Seattle-Tacoma Shipbuilding Corp. to the tune of $5,000,000. Perhaps this is a lead someone would wish to follow.
JH:

That is a very interesting tip. Thank you.

A quick Google search turned up a Worthpoint listing of an expired Ebay auction for a similar piece of brass firefighting equipment. Here is the blurb I extracted:

THIS VINTAGE PLAYPIPE IS IN GREAT SHAPE FOR ITS AGE WITH ALL THREADS WORKING SMOOTHLY. I BELIEVE THE CORDED PLAYPIPE IS AN S-211, THE SHORTER VERSION OF THE 211 STILL BEING MANUFACTURED BY ELKHART BRASS TODAY. THE PLAYPIPE IS JUST OVER 20" IN LENGTH WITH ALL THREE PIECES CONNECTED. AT THE BRASS BASE OF THE PLAYPIPE, IT IS CLEARLY MARKED "EUREKA FIRE HOSE" & "N O D 1543" & "USN PROP 10-41". THE RED CORD IS IN GREAT CONDITION OTHER THAN A LITTLE FADING IN SPOTS. THE BRASS PIECE WITH THE LEG & ELKHART EMBLEM IS ALSO CLEARLY MARKED "N O D 1543" & "U.S.N. PROP".

Although anything is possible it seems unlikely to me that a faker would use the same markings on a Victory Model as are found on this old piece of fire equipment. This lead may bear further investigation.
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Old 03-07-2018, 01:53 PM
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Here is the item Charlie (and I ) just found. There is also a tool so marked on file as an ebay item, although none currently offered.

So I think indications are that this is a legitimate Navy marking, although we're no closer to the answer for what.
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Old 03-07-2018, 02:09 PM
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The member who originally posted on V73, Oger, has provided me with photos of the revolver. I am posting them here so that we have all 4 known examples of these guns in one place.

Thank you to Oger for getting these pics made available to us.





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Old 03-07-2018, 03:03 PM
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I realize this is perhaps an ignorant question, but were pantographs in use during the WWII period? The markings are clearly done by that method.

The only other U.S. Navy markings I have seen were stamped on the topstrap, no "property" marking.

John

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Old 03-07-2018, 04:34 PM
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The letters are perfect. Lined up straight, evenly cut, perfect in every way. I doubt they were done by hand. They look factory.

What would have been used to cut such nice letters with such square bottoms? They are not stamped just stamped in.
Engraving machines have been in use for a very long time. Those were done with an engraving machine.
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Old 03-07-2018, 06:31 PM
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Engraving machines have been in use for a very long time. Those were done with an engraving machine.
Hoping not to get dinged, because I disagree with you. Smith & Wesson factory invoices say "STAMPED U S NAVY" Other invoices also read "Stamped" on police department orders, while others say "ENGRAVED". I've had the benefit of seeing original invoices, but, I still could be wrong.
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Old 03-07-2018, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Club Gun Fan View Post
Hoping not to get dinged, because I disagree with you. Smith & Wesson factory invoices say "STAMPED U S NAVY" Other invoices also read "Stamped" on police department orders, while others say "ENGRAVED". I've had the benefit of seeing original invoices, but, I still could be wrong.
No, I actually think that, if I'm understanding you correctly, you are both right. The S&W factory markings are "stamped" but the additional markings on the frame are pantographed.
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Old 03-07-2018, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by kwill1911 View Post
No, I actually think that, if I'm understanding you correctly, you are both right. The S&W factory markings are "stamped" but the additional markings on the frame are pantographed.
Charles Pate says (about the red letter marking) that it ďis usually stamped but may be engravedď, although he does not elaborate further. It would be interesting to know whether he meant that he observed both, or just was not sure.

As for the topstrap, Iíve wondered whether that was a rollmark or a linear stamp. The letters including the flaming bomb on the US PROPERTY GHD version, are always so well aligned that it certainly was not individually die-stamped.
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Old 03-08-2018, 01:37 AM
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There should be no question than the "U.S.N. PROPERTY NOD. 1543" is machine engraved, not stamped.
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:19 AM
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Default "official" possibilities for NOD 1543

Good morning Forum;

I am no expert on much of anything but I am an avid WW II history buff and have performed some research to augment my handguns and long guns from WWI and WWII so here is something to consider:

In the early days of WWII and indeed, throughout the war, all Army, Navy, Marine, and Air Corp bases, locations etc. had to be kept secret, hence as example USN and USMC all mail (and shipments) were titled FPO (Fleet Post Office) either SF (San Francisco) or NY (New York). Anyone mailing a letter new this.

A series of number codes were issued in secret to stateside supply and receiving depots (like Navajo Ordnance Depot in AZ, or Pomona Ordnance Depot in CA, or Hawthorne Naval Ordnance in NV). I believe these depots were the actual stateside place where the actual 4 digit code would be engraved that defined where the particular item was headed (i.e. to what base, in what theatre, etc.

My info some time ago came up with code numbers ranging from "10" to "3964" with several associated with USN-USMC, with at least five..4 digit codes assigned to Nouema, New Caledonia which was THE major US Navy/Marine supply base supporting the island hopping campaign from Guadalcanal to Iwo... as islands like Tarawa and Saipan were taken new bases of supply were opened on those and had anther 4 digit code.

I am thinking (pure, 100% speculation) that NOD. 1543 could easily have meant that S & W shipped to stateside supply center, they engrave NOD 1543 which fitsn right in with known code 1400 Nouema, New Caledonia (no further base designation) and could go then to any of the several 4 digit codes sending it to Nouema, Naval Ordnance Depot, Nouema Base Hospital, Naval Ammunition Depot, Radio Station, Air field, etc.

I am not at home at the moment and cannot recall of the top of my head the research papers, but if Forum is interested I'll gather the stuff tonight and post whatever links I can find, but seriously....in lieu of other guesswork the Navy/Marine Corp indeed had to have some method of getting Victorys from Massachusetts into the hands of Joe Foss and other pilots fighting for us all on Henderson Field on the "Canal", and they sure couldn't tell S & W: hey guys...just slap on some postage to get it to our supply depot at such and such an address.

Like I said up front........a wild SWAG on my part, but I have seen some docs that support this type of theory, so maybe a real research specialist could dig deeper.

Sorry for the long winded run.
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Old 03-08-2018, 03:03 PM
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Default some additional skinny on Naval Ordnance Depots

Some notes on my above post about possible meanings of NOD. 1543

The Department of the Navy in 1941 established the need for secure ordnance depots to be constructed as soon as possible around the interior of the USA. Some of the criteria was that the facility had to be a minimum of 600 miles inland from any coast to avoid capture by sea invaders, had to have east/west rail lines, and there were others.

There were sixteen (16) depots constructed by mid 1942, one of these was the Navajo Ordnance Depot outside of Flagstaff AZ. Another was Louisville Ordnance Depot in KY, but this had a different Navy designation of NOSL and was nicknamed "Gunsmiths to the Fleet". Another was Pocatello ID where 16 inch ship guns were cranked out.

Anyway. All 16 were ordnance mission specific based on the Army Ordnance mission of "delivering weapons and ammo to combat units" (or a lot of bureaucratic fancy words to that effect).

My theory is somewhat akin to the USPS, The FPO SF takes place of City and State; the NOD is like a "persons name ie: the "addressee"; the 1543 is like a "zip code". Our current zip code plus 4 is like that....5 digit zip means city and state, the plus 4 gets it in the right (hopefully) "carrier route sort" bin headed to your house.


I hope the meaning of NOD. 1543 does come to light positively so this piece of S & W revolver history can be put to rest.
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Old 03-08-2018, 08:07 PM
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No Navy postal code of 1543 during WWII.

U.S. Navy World War II Number Coded Geographical Locations


maybe they had separate codes for CONUS.
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:17 PM
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Those old Navy models bring back memories. In 1964 I was a young airman E-3 assigned to the USAF Air Police, base police section, at McCoy AFB Florida. Our service revolvers were Colts and Smith & Wessons that were marked Property Of US Navy. When I separated in September 1967, we still were using the same revolvers. The flight line AP's had just started using the USAF Model 15.
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Old 03-09-2018, 12:33 AM
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Years ago I had a Victory revolver marked NYMI. Thinking it had been surplussed to some New York state agency, I disposed of it. I later found the acronym stood for 'Navy Yard Mare Island.' I don't know the meaning of NOD, but my revolver was marked in the same coarse lettering as the NOD piece.
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Old 03-09-2018, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by El Biblioitecario View Post
Years ago I had a Victory revolver marked NYMI. Thinking it had been surplussed to some New York state agency, I disposed of it. I later found the acronym stood for 'Navy Yard Mare Island.'.....
We all do dumb things like that on occasion

The Mare Island Victorys are even rarer than the Red Letter Navy Victorys.
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:42 AM
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Man I have learned something here this morning . You guys come up with some interesting and many time puzzling questions .Thanks ordinanceguy for starting and the rest of you guys for adding information to this thread.very interesting stuff.

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Old 03-09-2018, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
There should be no question than the "U.S.N. PROPERTY NOD. 1543" is machine engraved, not stamped.
Absolutely, I agree.
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:10 PM
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Great thread. But I'm hoping someone has the answers to the mystery.
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Old 03-09-2018, 07:22 PM
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There was a similarly marked Victory mentioned in a 2009 thread Early Victory Navy Marked (?)
but it doesn't provide any additional information, other than some speculation that a dot matrix engraver was used. The consensus opinion was that it is a fake. Unfortunately the pictures which were attached seem to have been deleted so we can't see exactly what they are talking about.

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Old 03-09-2018, 11:05 PM
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Great post, Charlie! I enjoyed it a lot!
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Old 03-02-2020, 08:51 PM
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Default Victory price

Quote:
Originally Posted by ordnanceguy View Post
Gentlemen:

A recent thread asked about 4 inch, .38 Special Victory Model serialed V73, an early number, with unusual markings. Here is the link to that thread: Victory Base
The original poster was evidently unable to post pics of this gun.

I have some thoughts on this gun's markings, and others, and wanted to toss this out for discussion without appending it to the earlier thread.

First, V73 is not the only example I am aware of that is so marked. Indeed, the Victory Model Database reveals three other guns marked in a similar fashion. Those are V1170, V2033 and V2500.

I think it is not insignificant that all four guns so marked are in relatively close serial number proximity to each other. From the Database I estimate that they likely shipped in the July 1942 time frame. At that time the factory was producing 1000 revolvers per day, so these four were likely manufactured and shipped within 48 hours of each other. It is within the realm of possibility that they all went to the same destination and, thus, received identical markings.

The markings in question are odd for several reasons, but the one that leaps out is that they are oriented aslant at about a 45 degree angle on the left frame below the cylinder latch. Perhaps this was because it was difficult to fit the entire marking on the frame in a level orientation.

Although the assumption is that these guns were shipped to the US Navy, none of the four had factory letter data and, thus, it cannot be said for certain that any or all were, in fact, Navy shipments.

In my Victory archives I located photos I had saved of the latter three guns. Here is V1170. (I did not record the source of any of the photos.)



Here is V2033, a gun that was later refinished to nickle.



And here is V2500.



All of the markings appear to be uniform in their style and application. I suspect that the same facility (or person) marked all of them.

Another oddity is that the NOD is marked with only a single period following the D, rather than N.O.D. or NOD with no following period.

The next obvious question is the meaning of the NOD acronym. A reasonable guess might be Naval Ordnance Depot. However, I have not been able to establish that the term "Naval Ordnance Depot" was in use during WW2. The Navy operated Naval Ammunition Depots, but I have not been able to locate "Naval Ordnance Depot" as a term used in WW2.
Perhaps it is a post-war term, or maybe it just means something other than what I have speculated here.

What about the number "1543"? I think we rule that out as a rack number since all four bear the same number. Perhaps the 1543 is part of the title of the facility itself. But where are the other 1542 such facilities?

Which brings us to the question of greatest significance: Is the marking a legitimate Navy marking at all or simply a fiction dreamed up by an imaginative gun faker? Regrettably, I can't answer that one. The comment in the thread on V73 mentioned that the gun was located in California, a state which once had a flourishing cottage industry of Victory fakers. The fact that a gun is now located in California is not, of course, at all sufficient to condemn it as a fake, but one wonders. For me, the jury is still out on whether this marking is genuine or not.

It is a bit of a mystery. The Database has helped us again by aggregating this information and allowing us to begin this discussion.

If anyone has any better or different information than what I have posited here, I'd invite you to post it. In particular, I would like to see if any of these 4 revolvers have factory or SWHF letters proving shipment to a Navy destination and where that destination was located.
The gentleman that owned #73 has died and his daughter would like to know a value. It's going to an old friend of his and I have no clue
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Old 03-02-2020, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
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The gentleman that owned #73 has died and his daughter would like to know a value. It's going to an old friend of his and I have no clue
I cannot make any photos visible in this thread, and donít remember anything about its condition. So that value factor is indeterminable.

A decent-condition US variant of the Victory, if all-matching and all-original with stocks and no refinish, could bring anywhere between 350 and 500 depending on condition, maybe more if unissued.

The marking, in this case more likely genuine than not, but not authenticated, should neither add nor detract for most who are interested in these. An old friend should maybe offer the daughter a sum toward the upper end and call it good. Just my perspective.
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Old 03-03-2020, 06:13 PM
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I don't know why the old links to the photos I posted went bad. When I realized that today I went back, found the old pics, and edited the earlier posts to include the new photo links. They should be there now.

And no, we still don't know the precise meaning of NOD. 1543.
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Old 03-03-2020, 09:37 PM
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Default NOD 1543?

Found this information which may be pertinent to the engraving on the Victories as well as on the firefighting equipment. NOd 1543 relates to a supplemental contract for the construction of additional destroyers at the Seattle Naval shipyards (Seattle-Tacoma Shipbuilding Corp.) in early 1941.

Google is my friend.

Reduction of Nonessential Federal Expenditure, Hearings Before ...., 77-1 to ... - United States. Congress. Reduction of Nonessential Federal Expenditures Joint Committee - Google Books

I've briefly scanned this enormous document and although I cannot recite the specific article and verse, I recall seeing requirements for the contractor to provide services and "devices" for the protection of the vessels under construction from fire, freeze conditions, sabotage and other deleterious events. The S&W Victory revolvers, as well as the above cited firefighting equipment would fall under these requirements. I haven't found any specific requirement for the marking, or engraving of the contract reference information on such devices. It's probably in there somewhere, or in other government specifications that are referenced. The imagine of an enormous bureaucracy (also the warehouse scene from Indiana Jones) comes to mind when reading this. How did we ever get anything done? -S2
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Old 03-03-2020, 10:31 PM
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Good info, Speedo2. Thanks.
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Old 03-03-2020, 10:38 PM
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I've tried a couple of things, but it's beyond my abilities. However, I have edited my original reply with a link to the article that I tried to present. Hope that helps. -S2
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Old 03-04-2020, 02:20 PM
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Thank you, Speedo2. The information you provided seems to me to be the most convincing yet on the precise meaning of the NOD. 1543 marking.

I have not reviewed the entire gigantic contract document in the link provided by Speedo2. However, I was able to locate a provision which seems most pertinent here.



I would posit that the term "devices", as used in the contract under the subject of Special Plant Protection, can be interpreted to include small arms necessary for the "guarding and protection" of a facility vital to the national defense.

Just why it was thought necessary to engrave the property marking and the NOD reference on these revolvers is not known. The fact that some firefighting equipment, as referenced above, has similar markings suggests that this was not a random occurrence or one designed to mislead collectors.

One hesitation I have is that the original documents are dated December, 1940. There were several later amendments but none that I saw dated 1942. The 4 Victory Model revolvers in question were probably shipped from the factory in the June-July 1942 time frame, so that data point seems to be off just a bit.

Nonetheless, the evidence that Speedo2 has come up with is the most compelling I have seen yet on this issue. There is an old saying in medicine: When you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras. I think we should go with the probabilities here, forget about the zebras and conclude that the meaning of NOD. 1543 is a reference to the Navy shipbuilding contract with Seattle-Tacoma Shipbuilding Corporation.
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Old 03-04-2020, 05:24 PM
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Could NOD represent NAVAL Ordnance District? 100% Correct... seen it on Savage shotgun.
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Old 03-04-2020, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrnurse View Post
Could NOD represent NAVAL Ordnance District? 100% Correct... seen it on Savage shotgun.
Did you see Naval Ordnance District spelled out?

A search produces all kinds of three-word combinations starting with Naval Ordnance óóó, like Bureau, Plant, Station, Laboratory, ....

But no District Iíve come across so far.
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Old 03-04-2020, 06:57 PM
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I found this in a thread of vise collectors.

Victory Models Marked "U.S.N. PROPERTY NOD. 1543"-204-5-stamp-jpg

Victory Models Marked "U.S.N. PROPERTY NOD. 1543"-screenshot-www-garagejournal-com-2020-03-04-16_50_55-jpg
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Old 03-05-2020, 09:38 AM
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I have a customer that builds large items. Until sometime in the 1980s they would stamp or mark equipment purchased with the contract that they were bought under. So today things have a strange number on them. They still have various items from those days and you can see the tags with the old contract numbers.

I was told it was some accounting thing. Why it's not done now I don't know. Now things just get an asset number on them
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Old 03-05-2020, 02:52 PM
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In the federal paperwork, the "D" is printed in lower-case; NOd-1543. If you look around for similar contract identifications, you will find the NO, but the lower-case letter varies. I have found NOy-####, NObs-#### and so forth as contract designations. It looks to me as though the lower-case letters identify specific contracts (or, with the numerical portion, perhaps specific contractors) that can be grouped under the larger NO umbrella -- whatever that might mean. Naval Ordnance? Naval Operations? I suppose it could even be some DC Appropriations code that only accidentally uses letters that remind us of the agency or function that the expenditure will serve.

Here's a link to a page that uses the NOy and NObs contract variants:

U.S. Naval Activities, World War II, by State [QWashington]
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Old 03-05-2020, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ordnanceguy View Post
One hesitation I have is that the original documents are dated December, 1940. There were several later amendments but none that I saw dated 1942. The 4 Victory Model revolvers in question were probably shipped from the factory in the June-July 1942 time frame, so that data point seems to be off just a bit.

Charlie,
I only gave part of it a quick look, but note the first printed page at that link says-


Victory Models Marked "U.S.N. PROPERTY NOD. 1543"-2020-03-04-1-jpg




and page 1141-




Victory Models Marked "U.S.N. PROPERTY NOD. 1543"-2020-03-04-jpg
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Old 03-05-2020, 04:04 PM
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Regarding the 1941 and 1942 dates pointed out by Lee, I think they relate to the context in which the documents containing the NOd 1543 reference were published. That seems to be the work of a later committee studying those contracts to reduce federal expenditures, so we canít tie those to anything in the 1940 Navy contract itself.

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......

Although the assumption is that these guns were shipped to the US Navy, none of the four had factory letter data and, thus, it cannot be said for certain that any or all were, in fact, Navy shipments.

... In particular, I would like to see if any of these 4 revolvers have factory or SWHF letters proving shipment to a Navy destination and where that destination was located.
I think if we really want to get a bit further, we need to take action on this.

We donít need an actual letter with all the trimmings, but maybe for a donation to the SWHF we can get Roy to look up the numbers and confirm for us that the 4 guns went to the Navy and if so, whether to the same location. Iíd be willing to chip something in.
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Old 03-05-2020, 04:38 PM
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Default Some comments on the early Navy Victories

I had recently asked Roy on my US Navy relatively early S/N about requesting additional information from SWHF after I receive my Letter (recently sent for).

For those interested look in the SWCA Forum and the post was by kscharlie on 02-26-20 with the title "Questions about Historical Documents". My post #4 asked Roy about additional information beyond the Letter on the Navy. He responded in post #6 and what MAY be relevant to this NOD discussion could be his comment " The early Navy shipments MAY have the Naval address"

On this NOD marked Victory, it appears that the Factory did not do the engraving so there may be no record at all via S&W.

On the other hand I think Absalom has a great idea and I would be wiling to kick something in the kitty if others think it may result in something.
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Old 03-05-2020, 06:23 PM
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In that same document about "Reduction of Non-essential Federal Expenditures" it is fairly clear that NOd-1543 is a supplemental contract which was awarded to the Seattle-Tacoma Shipbuilding Corporation, apparently to add shipyard facilities and equipment for building Destroyers. Could be that small arms for shipyard guards, etc, could have been included as government owned material incidentals under that same contract, and that such small arms were marked with the contract number. Proof of shipment to the S-T Shipbuilding Corp in Seattle might confirm that. But the small arms may well have been originally sent to the Navy, who in turn supplied them directly to the shipbuilding company as government-owned material.

Last edited by DWalt; 03-05-2020 at 07:04 PM.
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