Ok, as any of you that follow my posts know - I'm learning as I go. I did a deal today for a S&W 58 which was my main target but this other little fellow ended up as part of the deal as well.

Let me know if it is what I think it is. I think it is an early post-war M&P a so called Pre-Model 10 in the SCSW book? It is a 4" 38 special, 5-screw, S#S 881224 - the book seems to only indicate production between 1945 and 1948.

Member Moralem made note on another thread of mine that he had seen the revolver and thought that it had the wrong set of grips. However, the right grip is numbered to the gun. The S# is found on the right grip, frame, barrel, and cylinder. The finish is immaculate (the glare is from the setting sun). This gun looks like it is almost new - not 70 years old.

It doesn't match up to what SCSW shows for post war M&P since the address line is on the barrel not on the frame and it states Made in USA there - is that because it is from left over wartime victory parts?

What is the value of this thing? If I go by "the book" it shows 1200 for ANIB and $600 for excellent if it is indeed what I think it is. Since I got it as an afterthought with the 58 and have about $200 in it I know I did good regardless.

I hope I don't get myself going down another rabbit trail. I had been sticking just to the magnum and big bores, hadn't started on the 38's yet but couldn't pass this one up at that price. Looks like I need to send off for another letter.

Thanks,
Earl

What a beauty, and what a deal! The problem with a deal that good is now you won’t want to pay the going rate for other comparable K frames and, yes, you will be accumulating more .38s. There is no turning back. Resistance is futile. Thanks for sharing. Regards,
Doug

As you know it all evens out. I've paid full retail for many of my N frames!

As far as I can see, everything is good. Very nice condition.

A post-war S-prefix M&P. All stampings where they should be, the MADE IN USA as well as the patent dates on the barrel. No left-over parts from the war. All that was standard until 1948. This one is early 1947, I believe.

Technically, it’s a bit too early for a pre-Model 10, as we usually apply that term to M&P’s after the changes of 1948.

Awesome, thanks Absalom! Wasn't looking to add a 38 to the stack but couldn't pass it up at that price. Have to start on them at some point anyways.

For comparison, here is mine in the identical configuration, from December 1947. Just a bit more weathered and with a grip adapter, police dept.-shipped.

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You have a real beauty. It is a "S" prefix postwar vice a pre model 10 but when they are that pretty who cares.

I have you boxed in with a 1946 "S" prefix



and a 11/47 shipped 6" Postwar

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

My favorite M&P is a 5" that shipped in December '46, about 20,000 numbers lower than your beauty.

Congrats on yours.

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

Nice guns you all have, I like

I'm learning, so are the post wars that are made from victory parts all SV marked instead of just S prefix?

In another collecting life I had a few victory models when I collected US WW2 martial arms but that was a looong time ago.

Thanks,
Earl

Not quite sure what you are asking. As I understand it post war frames had the four line address; so if you have a 46 or 47 shipped M&P with a single line address the frame was made during the war but not shipped until after the war. I have 1947 and 1948 shipped revolvers with the one line address. The 1946 shipped postwar that I have has a small "S" on the upper side plate indicating that sideplate was made for an SV gun but used on a postwar gun.

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

Thanks Targets Guy, was getting the S# prefixes confused. I believe I got it now that SV's are victory models and not post war. But I see an S on my gun in places as well (underside of barrel, back of cylinder - both of those are pictured, and also left side of frame under the left grip) so based on your reply does that indicate parts originally made for the victory models but not used until this gun in 1947? Just learning! Thanks everyone.

Thanks again,
Earl

Mike:

You misunderstood that somewhere with the one-line address. That has nothing to do with “war-time frames”. The one-line address continued to be applied to new production frames until a change order in 1948. Until some time around then the patent dates appear on the barrel top, too. We actually have one-liners into the five-digit C-prefix guns in later 1948.

Thanks for the clarification Absalom. Learning a lot about these tonite. The 58 that I was originally after looked good too but I was playing with this M&P so much that it got too dark to take photos

Earl:

This is a bit confusing. The S you see under the barrel behind your serial (not the prefix!) and under the grip is a service department mark that has nothing to do with the S prefix; we find that S on Victory models throughout the war.

Also, there are a batch of SV guns that are post-war, assembled as regular M&P’s, not Victorys, and generally shipped in spring 1946. I don’t think we know when exactly these frames were manufactured.

That makes sense Absalom. I was picking up on some of that unknown area as I was perusing that section in the book. Thanks.

As others have said, it is a .38 Military & Police from relatively early in the postwar period. With that serial number, it very likely shipped in April, 1947.

Technically, it isn't a "pre-model 10," since it has the long throw hammer. Only the tail end of the S production had the high speed hammer which defines the "pre-model" period, starting in early 1948. The lowest serial number I've actually identified with the new hammer is serialized S990806. It shipped in March, 1948.

He is simply mistaken. The Magna stocks on your gun are exactly what we would expect on one from this period. The "sharp shoulder" Magna stocks with that checked pattern first came along in early 1946 and remained unchanged until early 1953. After that, the shoulder got a more tapered look.

As we would expect. Those are original to the gun.

The company name, city and state remained on the barrel along with patent numbers throughout the S prefix run and into the C prefix until about 1950.

The four line address on the frame showed up sometime in 1948, after the C prefix came into use.

No, not at all. The vast majority of S prefix guns (actually, I think all of them) were newly manufactured after the war. Many of the SV prefix guns probably had frames that were forged during the war or in August, 1945, but they were neither assembled nor shipped to the military. I don't believe anyone can say for certain that all of the SV guns were "leftover from the war." Nor can we have any certainty about various parts other than that many were no doubt in the bin. The frames and possibly the sideplates may have been forged before the war ended. After the war was over, S&W spent some time retooling for civilian production. One thing that seems to have stopped immediately was the wartime finish. I have looked at a thousand S prefix guns and none of them wore the wartime finish; all were blued, except the handful that were nickel plated. This is true both for those that shipped to police departments and those that went to distributors. Moreover this includes SV guns that shipped to a location other than the Navy.

The highest serial number on a gun shipped to the Navy was SV802722. It went out the door on August 13, 1945, and was delivered to the Norfolk Naval Yard. The very next day, Japan capitulated and Victory shipments stopped immediately.

The earliest shipment to a civilian location I have uncovered so far was in February, 1946. This was a batch of unknown size that went to the Cleveland Police Department. The serial numbers were in the S815xxx range. A whole bunch with lower serial numbers shipped to a myriad other locations after that, including quite a few with the SV prefix. Note the implication: the earliest 1946 shipment was of guns with the simple S prefix, not the SV prefix. Clearly civilian production had started by that time.

I have recorded a shipment of 800 units that went to a distributor in New York on March 3, 1946. At least some of those guns had the SV prefix. I have not yet identified the entire batch, but I do know that half of them had 4" barrels and half had 5" barrels.

From my extensive survey, it appears that, generally speaking, civilian shipments began in March, 1946, with the one exception noted above (to Cleveland PD).

In that condition with no box, etc., I would think it will sell for $600 or a bit more. I own about 20 of the darn things, and only one or two are as nice as that one. Congrats!

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Thanks for all the excellent info Jack! My oldest son has already noticed the new addition and indicated it's his favorite S&W to date. Guess it won't be going anywhere. Earl

Here is a picture of my favorite S prefix M&P. Notice that this one shipped with the prewar style Magna stocks (more extensive checking). It shipped in March, 1946. It has a 5" barrel.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Wow I love that one Jack, and the box is in as nice condition as the gun. It is hard enough finding a 40 year old gun with a box let alone more than 70 years old..impressive.

Jack:

We may have addressed this question before, I may even have asked this before, but heck, I’m getting to where I ask the same question twice in the same conversation, sooo ...

Is there any correlation between SV prefix and factory-plugged lanyard loop hole? Specifically, are there any commercially finished SV frames that don’t have one? And how about S frames that have one?

Everyone needs a good Smith & Wesson 38 special in their safe, and I doubt you will find a cleaner one than that.

EarlB... what a great looking gun! Nice find!

Here's one a little later than yours, S948308... shipped 10/15/47:

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

I have found a half dozen or so SV guns that did not have the swivel hole. The vast majority do.

There are lots of early S prefix revolvers that have a plugged hole (the one in my picture above does). As near as I can tell, nearly all of those shipped by sometime in April, 1946, with the exception of those that shipped later and way out of serial sequence. A few guns produced later do have the hole, but one presumes they were ordered that way.

I hope this helps.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

My S818xxx which shipped in 8/46 has the plugged swivel hole.

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

I have my Dad's postwar service 4" M&P S836xxx which Dates to about Aug 1946. He'd just returned from the S Pacific and added the Smith to his 1938 Colt New Service in .357........Both guns now have family heirloom status.

Dad, was 25 when he enlisted and had been a Police Officer for about 4 years. He was on '"small(er) boats" w/ the Coast Guard in the Philippians..... seem to recall he was exposed to/issued the Victory Model while there.

Never talked about what they were doing ........ but his funny war story was: During training they were sent ashore at night ( along the Gulf coast or Mississippi ??? ) and had to steal and bring back a watermelon...... the local farmers were recruited/tasked with "catching" them....... by firing a shotgun over their heads if they were seen.

Thanks, Jack! I guess it would have been hoping for too much neatness from S&W to be able to say: SV frames = lanyard hole = Victory frame, and S frames = no hole = post-war civilian frame

The overlap in BOTH directions is a bit of a puzzle, but I assume there are assembly sequences conceivable that would explain that.

FWIW, I own S937988 that shipped 9/9/1947 (exactly 3 years before me) with a 6"barrel, S955509 that shipped 11/1947 with a 5" barrel, and C2077 that shipped 11/1948 with a 6" barrel.

Just for ha ha's, I will include 802544 that shipped 7/1941 with a 6" barrel and lanyard ring but was not a military gun.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Yes. That is one of the exceptions. That gun was a late shipper. Most of the revolvers with serial numbers in that range shipped in the spring of the year, mostly in April, with one batch shipping the first week of June.

After checking my database more closely, I went back and amended the offending sentence in my earlier post (#23). "Nearly all" would have been more accurate, because there are always exceptions.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

i have an early "S" prefix serial number M&P, five inch barrel, factory nickel with pre war grips.....

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There's nowt so queer as folk