Thinking About This .22/.32

merl67 · #1 04-08-2018, 12:09 AM

I am thinking about this one, I have the parts, and I think I now have the skills to pull it off just not sure what it is worth as it sits. It is fully functional both in single action and double action. I know collector value is gone but even the sum of parts has value and I do love orphans and a challenge.

JP@AK · #2 04-08-2018, 01:38 AM

WHO DOES THIS STUFF???? Hacking off the trigger guard? Good grief.

rct269 · #3 04-08-2018, 01:46 AM

Look at it this way: You can't "fan" the hammer on one of theses things; but you can "fan" the trigger---if it wasn't for that pesky trigger guard.

Ralph Tremaine

Weimar · #4 04-08-2018, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rct269

Look at it this way: You can't "fan" the hammer on one of theses things; but you can "fan" the trigger---if it wasn't for that pesky trigger guard.

Ralph Tremaine

YIKES!!

Hondo44 · #5 04-08-2018, 03:20 AM

I remember this one. Certainly worth restoring, especially since it's so functional.

I figure with the problems and it's low level of original finish it might sell for $500. The labor to fix the trigger guard and hammer spur is about $200 worth of tig welding and finishing. So I think I might buy it if I could get it for $250-300.

When you say that you have the parts, do you mean a junk frame?

Old_Cop · #6 04-08-2018, 07:18 AM

Oh the humanity!

merl67 · #7 04-08-2018, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

I remember this one. Certainly worth restoring, especially since it's so functional.

I figure with the problems and it's low level of original finish it might sell for $500. The labor to fix the trigger guard and hammer spur is about $200 worth of tig welding and finishing. So I think I might buy it if I could get it for $250-300.

When you say that you have the parts, do you mean a junk frame?

Yes I have junk frame in my parts stashand a hammer that I think i could use.

red9 · #8 04-08-2018, 09:42 AM

Rare! How often do you see a Fitz .22/32HFT?

Bob

glowe · #9 04-08-2018, 11:16 AM

I just cannot place a "Like" on this thread as it hurts my eyes . . . but buying it depends on the price. I would not think it should sell for anywhere near the $300 mark, maybe closer to $200.

SWSC4 says FAIR is worth $325, but there is not a condition grade for MUTILATED. Even if you do not buy it, let us know what is sells for. Regardless of its condition, I bet someone will pay an unreasonable price for it.

Green Frog · #10 04-08-2018, 12:01 PM

If I already had or knew I could find a frame (with side plate) and hammer and could get it cheap ($200 or less)I might consider it. A nice short barrel to build a kit gun could seal the deal.

Froggie

bulletslap · #11 04-08-2018, 12:40 PM

Would I be a bad person if I said I would like to massage the head of the cretin that did that with a sock full of quarters ?

Muley Gil · #12 04-08-2018, 01:03 PM

Forum member tennexplorer restored a revolver that had had the trigger guard cut. I believe he posted pictures. You might want to do a search through the older posts.

smithrjd · #13 04-08-2018, 07:51 PM

Hate see something like that, what the heck were they thinking? But if it is worth $300 it makes me feel good about the nice one with honest wear I bought for $650.. Glad someone may save it.

merl67 · #14 04-08-2018, 08:24 PM

I didn't buy it and, no one else did either, by the time I paid shipping, my FFL to do the transfer I would have almost $300 in it.

JSR III · #15 04-08-2018, 10:02 PM

I commented about that gun in another thread. Since I own probably more of these than most, I can tell you that it was painful to look at. The problem here is that the sum of the parts may be worth more than the gun. I have purchased whole guns for $450 but the stocks and rear sight are probably worth (to some) $200 to $250 alone.

I am looking at buying a rear sight for one of mine that is broken but since the sights are numbered, I am having reservations. Do I want an all original example with a broke rear sight or do I want an unbroken example with a non matching/original rear sight.

Decisions, decisions.......

JSR III · #16 04-08-2018, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Rare! How often do you see a Fitz singleshot?

Bob, not sure what you are asking?

Hondo44 · #17 04-08-2018, 10:11 PM

Are the grips number matching to the gun? They can only be correct if the gun shipped between ~ 1918 - 1920. Which I think they are because it has no logo on left side of frame. And that's the only period the Reg Police grips had the gold medallions. After 1920 to 1924 the RP grips had no medallions.

Before that and after 1923 it came with two screw target grips.

So if he parts it out, the pair of grips is worth ~$150 by itself.

Now that it didn't sell, the seller might be more negotiable to an offer.

• "No-Logo" guns from 1917 and following WW I until gradual re-use on all model, I, K, & N frames by 1920/21.

• Prior to WW I, .22/32 Heavy Frame Target models were supplied with two screw extended target stocks as standard. After WW I the Reg Police stocks with notched back strap became standard. By ~1920 all stocks including on 22/32 HFTs, changed to rounded, convex stock circle stocks w/o medallions and rounded, convex stock circle target stocks w/o medallions as optional until 1923. Above serial number ~258000 (right after WW I), the standard HFT’s stocks became Regulation Police stocks on a rebated grip frame, at first with deep dish gold plated brass medallions in the late 'teens. Checkered two-screw extension target stocks with gold plated brass medallions in ‘dished’ stock circle tops were optional until 1920, w/o medallions after that. (see “August 29, 1923 change” below).

• Aug. 29, 1923 change order, replaced .22/32 HFT’s sq butt RP convex top stocks, returning to 2 screw target stocks as standard but with convex tops, and w/o medallions. And from the original Paine bead front sight w/U-Notch to a Patridge w/square notch rear. The next day, the same was ordered for the 32 & 38 Target Models and the Single Shot Model as well, S&W 1857-1945 N&J pg. 235.

JSR III · #18 04-08-2018, 10:35 PM

FWIW, from my database, 270836 shipped 5-1-1919 had reg police stocks with gold medallions and no S&W logo.

I have NO entries during 1920.

The next entry is 341632 that shipped in February of 1921 with reg police stocks without medallions and a small S&W logo on the left.

I also have 390981 that shipped 1924/25??? with 2 screw extension stocks with no medallion.

This continues until 1930 when I begin to see the 2 screw extension stocks showing up with silver medallions in the low 500000 serial ranges.

merl67 · #19 04-08-2018, 10:45 PM

I have messaged him to see if he will come down, if I can have it in my hands for around $230 I might just take a chance the rear sight blade looks like it was dropped on it.

JSR III · #20 04-09-2018, 12:15 AM

Check with "club gun fan" (Don Mundell) as he has both rear and Paine front sight blades for sale. He also has the front sight pins but will need to now the exact length as he has several sizes.

Hondo44 · #21 04-09-2018, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSR III

I commented about that gun in another thread. Since I own probably more of these than most, I can tell you that it was painful to look at. The problem here is that the sum of the parts may be worth more than the gun. I have purchased whole guns for $450 but the stocks and rear sight are probably worth (to some) $200 to $250 alone.

I am looking at buying a rear sight for one of mine that is broken but since the sights are numbered, I am having reservations. Do I want an all original example with a broke rear sight or do I want an unbroken example with a non matching/original rear sight.

Decisions, decisions.......

That's a common dilemma when restoring old guns. The answer sometimes, if possible, is to use the new part (rear sight in this case) to fix the original with matching serial # to the gun.

Easier said then done, but sometimes there's potential to do it. Tig welding can come in handy for this. I hope so.

Hondo44 · #22 04-09-2018, 01:34 AM

Another source for original rear sight blade:

Linde post #25: Please help me Identify this Pistol. New to the forum

JSR III · #23 04-09-2018, 08:34 AM

Quote:

The answer sometimes, if possible, is to use the new part (rear sight in this case) to fix the original with matching serial # to the gun.

Jim, perhaps I did not elaborate in my comment enough to be clear. One of the common problems that I have seen during my study of these I frame .22/32 HFT's is that (I think) during efforts to elevate the rear sight, folks crank down on the rear screw without loosening the front screw. What happens is that the base of the sight cracks and you end up with two pieces. It is not a broken sight blade that I am having the dilemma with. I believe that Dumpster Don has replacement blades in his stash of NOS S&W parts.

My issue is that the base is broken in two and the base has a serial number. Now the only way someone will know in the future is by removing the sight and looking to see if the number matches.

Unfortunately, someone like myself with advanced stage 5 OCD, I'm not sure that I can live with that because I would know.

Green Frog · #24 04-09-2018, 10:24 AM

Looks like if anybody actually tries to do something with this orphan (other than cannibalize it for parts) they will either end up with a Franken-Gun version of the original or a highly customized version that makes no attempt at originality. I think I would go with the latter.

How about adding a new thumb pad to that abbreviated hammer spur to make a "cockeyed" style for single action work?

I'm still looking at that missing trigger guard and wondering whether I could get anything done about it. If I didn't have another donor frame to substitute in there, it would be a deal breaker for me. If you had to pay for that repair to the original frame (rather than being able to do it yourself) the resultant cost would make the project's cost to finished value ratio go waaaay out of whack!

I guessing that in the end I'm going to have to look at it like the cannibal and see how much "meat is on the bones." That is, how many good parts I could salvage to use on another gun. IMHO, it's not a sufficiently rare item to take extraordinary measures to save that specific gun. YMMV, of course.

Froggie

merl67 · #25 04-09-2018, 12:11 PM

Froggie you are spot on. I have a donor frame and a hammer that should work. The thing is I can get one of these for not a whole lot more than initial investment plus my time there will be several hours involved to make it look right.

Hondo44 · #26 04-09-2018, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSR III

Jim, perhaps I did not elaborate in my comment enough to be clear. One of the common problems that I have seen during my study of these I frame .22/32 HFT's is that (I think) during efforts to elevate the rear sight, folks crank down on the rear screw without loosening the front screw. What happens is that the base of the sight cracks and you end up with two pieces. It is not a broken sight blade that I am having the dilemma with. I believe that Dumpster Don has replacement blades in his stash of NOS S&W parts.

My issue is that the base is broken in two and the base has a serial number. Now the only way someone will know in the future is by removing the sight and looking to see if the number matches.

Unfortunately, someone like myself with advanced stage 5 OCD, I'm not sure that I can live with that because I would know.

Yes, I understood. In the case you describe a spare part wouldn't be needed. Just tig weld the two pieces back together, cleanup/finish and polish. Then reblue. Hopefully the break is not thru the serial #!

Hondo44 · #27 04-09-2018, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green Frog

Looks like if anybody actually tries to do something with this orphan (other than cannibalize it for parts) they will either end up with a Franken-Gun version of the original or a highly customized version that makes no attempt at originality. I think I would go with the latter.

How about adding a new thumb pad to that abbreviated hammer spur to make a "cockeyed" style for single action work?

I'm still looking at that missing trigger guard and wondering whether I could get anything done about it. If I didn't have another donor frame to substitute in there, it would be a deal breaker for me. If you had to pay for that repair to the original frame (rather than being able to do it yourself) the resultant cost would make the project's cost to finished value ratio go waaaay out of whack!

I guessing that in the end I'm going to have to look at it like the cannibal and see how much "meat is on the bones." That is, how many good parts I could salvage to use on another gun. IMHO, it's not a sufficiently rare item to take extraordinary measures to save that specific gun. YMMV, of course.

Froggie

Froggie,

Changing the frame is not the way I'd go; then it would be a franken gun. The spare frame would just supply a trigger guard that would be cut off and tig welded to the original frame.

Even if the welding were farmed out, it would be minimal expense. And anyone with reasonable skill could complete the cleanup/finishing and polish. Same with the hammer spur.

Then the gun would retain originality with all matching numbers.

merl67 · #28 04-10-2018, 01:32 PM

Looking like I may have a project on my hands...

Muley Gil · #29 04-10-2018, 11:21 PM

Here's the link I was talking about:

Early 1950 Target .45 Updated

merl67 · #30 04-11-2018, 01:42 AM

Made a deal, I will have it in my hands for $235.00 which is close enough that if I absolutely have to sell it for parts I could, and not be out much. Not the plan obviously going to see if I can turn a sows ear into a silk purse.

Hondo44 · #31 04-11-2018, 03:49 AM

Congrats on getting it at the right price.

Do you plan to do all work yourself or have a plan yet?

merl67 · #32 04-11-2018, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Congrats on getting it at the right price.

Do you plan to do all work yourself or have a plan yet?

I plan on doing the work myself, but I need to get it in my hands first to see exactly how it looks. The only part that really concerns me is how close the cut is to the screw hole in front of the frame.

smithrjd · #33 04-11-2018, 06:46 PM

Glad it is being saved. Wish I had the skills to do so myself. Let us all see how it turns out.

merl67 · #34 04-18-2018, 09:34 PM

I have the gun now. I shot it today function wise it shoots very good, it ejects the shells just fine the front sight will have to be replaced as well, looks like it was dropped as the rear sight has a ding and front sight has been shortened. If nothing else it will make a good shooter.

merl67 · #35 04-20-2018, 09:52 PM

I got some work done today, still a little rough, and I may redo the hammer. I will have to figure out how tall the front sight needs to be .here are some before, and after pictures.

Hondo44 · #36 04-20-2018, 10:12 PM

Wow, well on your way!

A little dressing down, maybe a little more tigging to fill in some pits, dress, polish, and touch up bluing.

Have you located an original Paine gold bead front sight from the several sources above?

Photos showing original front sight blade:

merl67 · #37 04-20-2018, 10:24 PM

I have not had a chance to check yet.

merl67 · #38 04-21-2018, 02:00 AM

Oh the serial number is 279XXX and is matching including grips and rear sight. I am thinking 1920 as a possible ship date . It was returned to the factory at least twice 2-21, and 11-22. It also has someones social security number at the bottom of the cylinder window. The best I can tell th number was issued in Montana around 1950.

Wiregrassguy · #39 04-21-2018, 07:23 AM

I think I have a Patridge gold bead front sight blade if you can't find a Paine.

Green Frog · #40 04-21-2018, 08:44 AM

Well, you got over then big barrier that would have stopped me... replacing the trigger guard. Since it is still going to be an altered gun, I would still consider adding the spur pad to make it a “cockeyed” hammer just because you don’t get to see that feature on HFTs that often.

I have admit that my attitude toward long barreled I-frames has cooled somewhat over the years, but every now and then a project like this one comes along and stirs my interest once again. I’m following your progress with enthusiasm!

Regards,
Froggie

THE PILGRIM · #41 04-21-2018, 09:22 AM

One in a row is too many!

merl67 · #42 04-24-2018, 02:57 PM

I think I am done with the metal. I decided to redo the hammer, as I did not like how it looked. I know it doesn't look original, but it looks good to me and is much improved for shooting. The front sight blade was made using a old sight blade I had. I used pictures of a Paine sight to get the hight right. The target shown was shot at 15 feet after some adjustments of course. I am happy with how it looks, but very happy how it shoots.

S&W ucla · #43 04-24-2018, 04:27 PM

Are you going to name it Lazarus?

Nice job on restoration! Most people would have parted it out, you brought it back.

Hondo44 · #44 04-24-2018, 04:54 PM

Well done!

Those original I frame hammers with fine checkering were not that easy to cock and not improved like yours till the models of 1953. Nice job.

merl67 · #45 04-24-2018, 05:21 PM

Lazarus sounds appropriate thanks for the suggestion !

glowe · #46 04-24-2018, 05:24 PM

Great job! That trigger guard looks like it came from a 38 Perfected?? I have a couple pictures of two of my 22/32 HFTs and am posting them in case they might help. One from the teens and one from the 20s.

merl67 · #47 04-24-2018, 09:43 PM

"That trigger guard looks like it came from a Perfected 38" Ding ding ding we have a winner. Yes Gary it came off a toasted Perfected frame.

Hondo44 · #48 04-24-2018, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

Great job! That trigger guard looks like it came from a 38 Perfected??

That sounds like a very "informed" guess!

glowe · #49 04-25-2018, 11:51 AM

I have to ask you how you welded the guard on? I have talked with many machinists, tool & die makers, welders, etc. who always state that without knowing the type of steel being welded, they cannot guarantee the results. Guessing what rod or wire to use can cause erosion, splatter, cracks, and holes in the pieces according to some craftsmen I have approached with projects on hundred-year-old+ guns.

I know enough to weld two pieces of steel together using stick welding, but MIG, Flux-Core, and TIG are mysteries to me. I am curious what type of welding you did and what materials you used and how it worked out?

merl67 · #50 04-25-2018, 01:11 PM

Don't laugh but I am far from a expert welder. I have a cheap Harbor Freight wire feed welder. I get the parts fitting like I want making sure I have a groove around the parts for the weld. I first tack weld the parts then check for alignment, if all looks good I proceed by basically spot welding filling in the gaps. I then using a Dremel grind the weld down until it is just above the surface of the parts. I repeat the welding process over as many times as necessary. I bought the welder many years ago because like you I could find no one willing to weld a hammer spur on an old Remington Rolling block. Oh and don't laugh again I use drywall mud as a heat sink. I am certain a good welder could do a much better job than I with a lot less cleanup afterword. Here is a before and after photo of my grip work.