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Old 04-08-2018, 11:05 PM
Wtneely Wtneely is offline
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Default Victory rechambered to .22 caliber

I have a victory that has been rechambered to .22 cal. with British proof marks, can anyone give me more info on this revolver?
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Old 04-08-2018, 11:22 PM
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They were done by a few British arms makers after the war, most notably Parker-Hale (which would usually be noted on the barrel).

For more insights, like the approximate origin of the original gun, we’d need at least the full serial, and maybe some pictures.
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Old 04-09-2018, 03:09 AM
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You'll probably find the chambers and barrel have liners to convert to .22 Cal. British arms makers did quality work.

Of course it no longer has any collector value but still a very nice shooter in an economical caliber.
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Old 04-09-2018, 07:39 AM
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I’ll have to disagree slightly with my “brother in arms” Hondo44. While a purist S&W collector might have no interest in this “altered” revolver, there could be interest in it as what it now represents, to wit, a view into what happened during then after WW II. It will never approach the value of a Registered Magnum, of course, but it does have historical and therefore its own collector value, just with a different group of collectors. JMHO, YMMV!


Froggie

PS Regardless of your view on collectibility, pictures would be good... we like pictures!!

Last edited by Green Frog; 04-09-2018 at 07:41 AM. Reason: Add PS
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Old 04-09-2018, 08:16 AM
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And a serial number can always be given as 1234XX if you wish.
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Old 04-09-2018, 08:36 AM
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Serial# V745161
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Old 04-09-2018, 08:47 AM
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I have always loved seeing these conversions.

They are a neat example of old world craftsmanship, that I much admire.
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Old 04-09-2018, 09:09 AM
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Question for you guys ...so the victory has no frame mounted firing pin like the other .22 smiths...did they mod the firing pin or did it work just fine?
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Old 04-09-2018, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Frog View Post
I’ll have to disagree slightly with my “brother in arms” Hondo44. While a purist S&W collector might have no interest in this “altered” revolver, there could be interest in it as what it now represents, to wit, a view into what happened during then after WW II. It will never approach the value of a Registered Magnum, of course, but it does have historical and therefore its own collector value, just with a different group of collectors. JMHO, YMMV!


Froggie

PS Regardless of your view on collectibility, pictures would be good... we like pictures!!
Well I'll have to agree. Another collector niche could be filled with these by different calibers (although usually just two, 22 and 38 Spl), but also by the different arms makers that converted them. Give me a firearm and I'll figure out a "need" to collect more than one of them!
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Old 04-09-2018, 09:19 AM
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Question for you guys ...so the victory has no frame mounted firing pin like the other .22 smiths...did they mod the firing pin or did it work just fine?
Yes the firing pin had to be modified. It can be done by lowering the pin and installing a recoil plate with a lowered firing pin hole. Or using a frame mounted firing pin.
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Old 04-09-2018, 09:36 AM
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass, wtneely! I join the call for pictures. Surely someone in Blount County has a camera?
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Old 04-09-2018, 09:50 AM
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Yes the firing pin had to be modified. It can be done by lowering the pin and installing a recoil plate with a lowered firing pin hole. Or using a frame mounted firing pin.
Would it be sufficient to make a new firing pin to mount on the hammer (moving the pin itself appropriately) then change the firing pin bushing to one with an eccentric hole?

Also, why go down with the impact? I'd think in terms of moving the pin strike up so the rim would be supported by the cylinder wall rather than the extractor. Is there something wrong with my thinking on this?? I guess in the end, it wouldn't matter with this application, but I've seen a few single shot rifles that hit on the rim over the extractor, and this gives a less consistent strike and ignition.

BTW, has anyone made a study of who did these conversions? A listing of manufacturers (not just gunsmiths who only did a one-off) with the alterations they used and the markings the applied would be an interesting addition to the body of historical data we have available... just "thinking aloud" here!

Froggie
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Old 04-09-2018, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Frog View Post
.....

BTW, has anyone made a study of who did these conversions? A listing of manufacturers (not just gunsmiths who only did a one-off) with the alterations they used and the markings the applied would be an interesting addition to the body of historical data we have available... just "thinking aloud" here!
I don’t believe there is enough there to study. As far as I am aware, Parker-Hale’s .22 conversions are the only ones that are marked with a stamp identifying the converter; see attached. The other picture is a 1957 P-H catalog (with the wrong S&W pictured ).
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Old 04-09-2018, 02:56 PM
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Speaking as an ‘Unpure’ Smith Collector,
I would love to have one!
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Old 04-09-2018, 03:09 PM
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Those got around. I saw one in, "South African Panorama" many years ago. Some old Afrikaner used it out in the bush for snakes and small game.I think he cited .22 ammo costs as a factor in his choice.

I suppose it worked okay on true rabbits.

Another South African whom I knew said his Ruger .22 auto pistol fared badly on rock rabbits, technically hyraxes, which were quite tough to kill with a .22. He did kill a puff adder with the Ruger.

That man's Ruger was the scarce model with 5.25-inch barrel of medium weight. It would surely have generated as much velocity as a K-22 or one of those Parker-Hale conversions. Writer Skeeter Skelton clocked .22 ammo from a Walther PPK going as fast as from a longer K-22.

I don't think a .22 is enough gun for Nile or savanna monitor lizards. But I can affirm that the little green anole lizards of North America are easily killed with a .22, if you really feel a need for that. I hit one with a Hi-Standard Field King pistol and the shot blew the lizard several feet away. Maybe some muscle contraction applied? I was astounded at the power of a .22 on a lizard that size.

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Old 04-09-2018, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
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Speaking as an ‘Unpure’ Smith Collector,
I would love to have one!
Well, call me "unpure" all you like.

But it's not a measly K frame.

It takes at least an N frame to tame the "mighty" .22 LR.

This thread lacks pictures.Victory rechambered to .22 caliber-00508_1-jpg
Victory rechambered to .22 caliber-20171209_160750-jpg
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Old 04-09-2018, 06:45 PM
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^Now thats pretty cool!^
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Old 04-09-2018, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
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Would it be sufficient to make a new firing pin to mount on the hammer (moving the pin itself appropriately) then change the firing pin bushing to one with an eccentric hole?

Also, why go down with the impact? I'd think in terms of moving the pin strike up so the rim would be supported by the cylinder wall rather than the extractor. Is there something wrong with my thinking on this?? I guess in the end, it wouldn't matter with this application, but I've seen a few single shot rifles that hit on the rim over the extractor, and this gives a less consistent strike and ignition.

BTW, has anyone made a study of who did these conversions? A listing of manufacturers (not just gunsmiths who only did a one-off) with the alterations they used and the markings the applied would be an interesting addition to the body of historical data we have available... just "thinking aloud" here!

Froggie

Froggie,

Moving the firing up would make it contact the upper edge of the hammer channel. Center fire pins just clear the channel as I recall.

I don't know of any 'one off' conversions. They all seem to have been done by known arms manufacturers. Not saying there weren't any.
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Old 04-09-2018, 08:55 PM
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass, wtneely! I join the call for pictures. Surely someone in Blount County has a camera?
We have cameras in Benton County, MO and can transcribe s/n's too. V601711. Well done conversion but no makers mark. Those Brits sure do like proof marks.
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Old 04-09-2018, 09:23 PM
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Very nice. It has grips from one of the converting companies. Someone will recognize the maker.

Have you looked under the barrel on the flat and under the grips for a name?
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Old 04-09-2018, 10:38 PM
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Very nice. It has grips from one of the converting companies. Someone will recognize the maker.
Interesting. The grips are the identical pattern as those used by Cogswell & Harrison for their .38 Special conversions, and can also be seen on Parker-Hale conversions. But the presumably proprietary crown logo on the medallion is different.

It would make sense if the various gunmakers procured these from the same wood shop and adapted them as desired.
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Old 04-10-2018, 08:41 AM
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[QUOTE=Hondo44;

Have you looked under the barrel on the flat and under the grips for a name?[/QUOTE]

Looked everywhere and other than the S&W factory stamps and a multitude of British proof marks there is nothing.
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Old 04-10-2018, 02:11 PM
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OK, so we're talking at least Cogswell and Harrison and Parker-Hale, and I was thinking I may have seen some mention somewhere of BSA doing some. Did most sleeve the barrel and chambers of the existing cylinder or were some replacements made up from scratch?

It just occurred to me that the extractor would have been a challenge... you would either have to build up the original to reach the smaller 22 LR case rim or make a complete new unit with its relatively complex system of notches for the hand to engage and allow the movement needed to bring up the next round. Neither of these solutions strikes me a particularly simple.

Of course there's also the matter of adjustable sights of one sort or another that got added on to some/most examples. Were these available from some entity in England or did the various manufacturers each build their own variety?

I had taken for granted that this could have been sort of a postwar cottage industry. Now I'm beginning to see why it would have been a factory undertaking rather than a small shop, one-off type of endeavor. I still find the whole topic to be interesting though, having had a couple of small experiences in caliber changes. Thanks all (especially Jim) for your forbearance with my ramblings and speculations!

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Old 04-10-2018, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
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Yes the firing pin had to be modified. It can be done by lowering the pin and installing a recoil plate with a lowered firing pin hole. Or using a frame mounted firing pin.
My converted New model 3 Target Model had the firing pin position changed to hit rimfire. This one was converted by a railroad blacksmith/machinist in the 20s in the Santa Cruz, Ca. Area. His grandson who I bought it from 1 1/2 years ago said it’s the only one he knows of his grandad made.
Wtneely, can you post your gun showing the extractor star?






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Old 04-10-2018, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
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OK, so we're talking at least Cogswell and Harrison and Parker-Hale, and I was thinking I may have seen some mention somewhere of BSA doing some. Did most sleeve the barrel and chambers of the existing cylinder or were some replacements made up from scratch?

It just occurred to me that the extractor would have been a challenge... you would either have to build up the original to reach the smaller 22 LR case rim or make a complete new unit with its relatively complex system of notches for the hand to engage and allow the movement needed to bring up the next round. Neither of these solutions strikes me a particularly simple.
Froggie
As shown in the N frame conversion above and other hand ejectors, the chamber liners are left protruding from the rear face of the chambers. It leaves a space on the edge of the cyl that still aligns with the frame stud. A plate like a large washer is added to the ejector star which is fit flush with the liner protrusions. This corrects the headspace issue. The plate is reamed and recessed with the chambers. The star notches are still original. One can also see the hole in the recoil plate (FP bushing) has been elongated downward for a lowered firing pin.

The NM #3 above was done a little more complicated: a plate is screwed to the rear cyl face. It's smaller diameter than the cyl face which again leaves an edge to align with the cyl retaining hook on the frame latch. The ejector star is also left original with a plate added like the hand ejector above.
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Old 04-11-2018, 06:26 PM
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Old 04-11-2018, 06:27 PM
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Old 04-11-2018, 08:27 PM
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Mk VII:

Thanks for posting these. I‘ve had these as crappy low-resolution pictures off Google, but yours are the first high-resolution clearly readable renditions I‘ve seen
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Old 04-11-2018, 10:12 PM
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I for the most part consider myself a purist collector and I do try to find the most original and pristine examples of any model within my budget. I promote the use of terms like stocks, yoke and checking as used by the founders out of respect for their genius and because I have OCD.

All that said, I can still appreciate alterations like these and also those done by individual gun owners to personalize or improve their favorite firearm. I do believe that there is a niche for collecting guns like these just as there are those that have made a collection of S&W copies like those from Belgium, Russia and Spain.

There was a huge surplus of guns after the war and I'm sure that the Brits saw a market for the much smaller and less powerful .22 round as opposed to their original caliber.
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Old 04-12-2018, 11:48 PM
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Old 04-13-2018, 12:04 AM
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[QUOTE=Wyatt Burp;139996112]My converted New model 3 Target Model had the firing pin position changed to hit rimfire. This one was converted by a railroad blacksmith/machinist in the 20s in the Santa Cruz, Ca. Area. His grandson who I bought it from 1 1/2 years ago said it’s the only one he knows of his grandad made.
Wtneely, can you post your gun showing the extractor star?

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Old 04-13-2018, 12:33 AM
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So if I read the serial on the cylinder face correctly as V 745161, the gun originally was a late-war BSR from Nov./Dec. 1944.

It was definitely converted, refinished, and properly proofed for .22 at the Birmingham proofhouse. The stocks are not the usual British replacement style, but imitation magnas; I can’t make out the logo on the medallion.

I can detect no other markings indicating the converter’s identity.

Last edited by Absalom; 04-13-2018 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 04-13-2018, 05:53 AM
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Here is a 1917 that I have had for a long time. It was converted to 22LR but from what the previous owner said it was done in the United States. There are no proof marks of any kind.
Period correct adjustable sites were installed and the revolver is as accurate as any of my model 17's.
I could only find a couple pictures but I can take more is anyone wants. http://attachment.php?attachmentid=3...15236131543123
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Old 04-13-2018, 08:39 AM
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[quote=Wtneely;139998880]
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Originally Posted by Wyatt Burp View Post
My converted New model 3 Target Model had the firing pin position changed to hit rimfire. This one was converted by a railroad blacksmith/machinist in the 20s in the Santa Cruz, Ca. Area. His grandson who I bought it from 1 1/2 years ago said it’s the only one he knows of his grandad made.
Wtneely, can you post your gun showing the extractor star?

Added Pix of cylinder
Just amazing. Honda, compare this extractor with the others. You have such a great eye for it. And look at Jim R’s 1917 above. Yet another variation. There sure were some great gunsmiths around then who deserve recognition. Though they remain nameless we are actually paying them tribute here.
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Old 04-13-2018, 11:40 AM
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I seem to recall some “blank” extractors (complete disk... no chamber cuts) being offered for sale at one time. I wonder whether this might have been a use for them. Then again now that I see Hondo44’s description, I guess that would be adding an unnecessary extra step.

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Old 04-13-2018, 03:14 PM
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[quote=Wyatt Burp;139999073]
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Originally Posted by Wtneely View Post
Just amazing. Honda, compare this extractor with the others. You have such a great eye for it. And look at Jim R’s 1917 above. Yet another variation. There sure were some great gunsmiths around then who deserve recognition. Though they remain nameless we are actually paying them tribute here.
Yes, yours looks to have been done the same way as Jim R's and the N frame in post #16.
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Old 04-13-2018, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim R View Post
Here is a 1917 that I have had for a long time. It was converted to 22LR but from what the previous owner said it was done in the United States. There are no proof marks of any kind.
Period correct adjustable sites were installed and the revolver is as accurate as any of my model 17's.
I could only find a couple pictures but I can take more is anyone wants. http://attachment.php?attachmentid=3...15236131543123
Mine revealed itself a tack driver also.
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Old 04-13-2018, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim R View Post
Here is a 1917 that I have had for a long time. It was converted to 22LR but from what the previous owner said it was done in the United States. There are no proof marks of any kind.
Period correct adjustable sites were installed and the revolver is as accurate as any of my model 17's.
I could only find a couple pictures but I can take more is anyone wants. http://attachment.php?attachmentid=3...15236131543123
Is the barrel also lined? It might be an after market barrel blank, that's the only I figure they could get the front sight so much too far back from the muzzle.
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:20 PM
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Here are some pic's of the barrel, I think it may be a new barrel blank, but who knows.http://attachment.php?attachmentid=3...67234423672315
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:57 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
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It appears to be an original barrel with address/patent dates on top.

The muzzle has a concave target crown which shows the liner seam. The front sight appears to be original and integral with the barrel, but appears to have a muzzle cap. If the barrel measures ~5 3/4" instead of 5 1/2", a cap has been added, for what reason I don't know.
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Last edited by Hondo44; 04-14-2018 at 05:07 AM.
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