U.S.N.C.P.C. MARKED M&P REVOLVER

[GUMPOND1]

I have come across this M&P revolver w usncpc stamping on the rear of the grip frame sn# is 756402 and is the same on grips, barrel , cylinder and grip frame. It is a 38 special w/ 4" barrel . last pat date on barrel is dec 29 14, made in usa on right side as well as large trademark. there is a lanyard attached. there are no british proofmarks, no us navy marking or a flaming bomb ord mark. what do I have and ball park worth. thanks - Bill

[Lee Barner]

nice find. if I recall, they made around 3,000 in 40/41 time frame. I had one several years ago. either 784748 or 748784. pictures would be nice. lee

[murphydog]

They were made for a proposed US Navy Civilian Police Corps that was supposed to assume law enforcement duties at naval facilities just prior to the US entry into WW II. As I recall the force never came into being and the marked .38 M & Ps went into the regular military supply chain.

If you look online, I think one of these is or was recently up on auction, for a value estimate.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by Lee Barner

nice find. if I recall, they made around 30,000 in 40/41 time frame. I had one several years ago. either 784748 or 748784. pictures would be nice. lee

One zero too many

There were 3000 made, shipped in 10 shipments to the Washington Navy Yard from about March to May 1941.

Serial range is between 740- and 760-. Since the USNCPC didn't happen, they ended up in all kinds of places, from regular Navy duty like Victorys to some shipped to Britain.

Asking prices are usually at least in the 1200 to 1500 range, but I can't tell you whether they actually sell for that. I'd definitely pay a substantial premium over a standard pre-Victory. In the condition you describe, all matching, I'd definitely snap it up as long as the price was three digits.

[GUMPOND1]

THE WEAPON is in very good shape - over 80 %- and pictures will be taken this evening. so if these guns were put in the military supply line and shipped everywhere there would be no sense requesting a letter ? thanks- Bill

[JP@AK]

Here is part of one paragraph from a brief history of the Victory Model I wrote on December 7, 2016, to commemorate the 75th Anniversary of the Pearl Harbor attack. This information was largely drawn from Pate's book.

Through the first eleven months of 1941, the U.S. military establishment was acquiring the commercial version of the .38 M&P revolver (.38 Special chamber), mostly for stateside security services, especially at ordnance depots and ports. Most of these guns were acquired through various purchase orders. The largest known example is a U.S. Navy request for 3,000 revolvers that were to be issued to the U.S. Naval Civilian Police Corps. The formal request for this purchase is dated January 4, 1941, and specifies that the backstrap of the gun is to be marked U.S.N.C.P.C. Company records reveal that all of the requested guns were delivered in ten shipments beginning on March 14 and ending on May 10, 1941.

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by GUMPOND1

if these guns were put in the military supply line and shipped everywhere there would be no sense requesting a letter?

Bill
On a revolver like this, I would probably purchase a letter, since they are relatively scarce items. You might not learn much from it, but it would be nice to have with the gun.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by GUMPOND1

THE WEAPON is in very good shape - over 80 %- and pictures will be taken this evening. so if these guns were put in the military supply line and shipped everywhere there would be no sense requesting a letter ? thanks- Bill

I have seen several letters for these, and what you will find out is on which date the gun shipped to the Washington Navy Yard. Everything else you already know. And what happened to them afterward is outside the scope of the S&W historians’ knowledge.

I would letter it if it were mine just so I can get the SWHF to research whether they have any correspondence or invoices relating to these in the digitized files, but that’s just me

[opoefc]

Later research has found an additional shipment of ( as I recall off the top of my head) 100 (?) revolvers, so there were 11 total shipments. While the factory letter will only verify shipment to the Navy, the letter would also verify that the gun is not a fake. Ed.

[DWalt]

It's in the correct SN range, and I list five USNCPC guns having SNs which are fairly close to 756402. So it has a high likelihood (but not 100%) of being the real thing. In total I have 21 USNCPC-stamped guns on my list in the SN range from 748606 to 759455 which is close to the usually quoted range of 748xxx to 760xxx (obviously most in this range are not USNCPC guns). I'd guess there are many more out there. Some of these USNCPCs in high condition have sold at auction in the $1500-$2000 range.

There is not a great deal of information about the USNCPC available which has not already been mentioned in this thread. Apparently the idea of forming this organization never got far beyond the concept stage before it was canceled. But not before someone ordered enough guns to arm everyone planned to be on the force. I have seen some indications that some USNCPC revolvers may have been originally sent to locations other than the Washington Navy Yard. But those may be simple mistakes in paperwork.

[Lee Barner]

Absalom, sorry about that. my brain was telling me 3,000 and my fingers told me 30. oops. lee

[JH1951]

I recently watched two past auctions for USNCPC by the Woodlawn Boys on a large auction site. One was blue, the other Parked. Stocks on the blue one were diamond checkered. Condition was very nice 90%+. Went for just under $1000. (Should have had 'service' stocks, correct? And I would have expected a parkerized finish, but what do I know?) The parked one was in high condition also, service stocks, holster included, and if memory serves me correctly it went for a bit above $1200.
These numbers may be off by $50. +-, but its a good indication of current value at auction. I have been halfheartedly looking for this model and came across the USNCPC's during the search.

[Watchdog]

Originally Posted by GUMPOND1

THE WEAPON is in very good shape - over 80 %- and pictures will be taken this evening.

Really looking forward to seeing photos of your gun!

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by JH1951

I recently watched two past auctions for USNCPC by the Woodlawn Boys on a large auction site. One was blue, the other Parked. Stocks on the blue one were diamond checkered. Condition was very nice 90%+. Went for just under $1000. (Should have had 'service' stocks, correct? And I would have expected a parkerized finish, but what do I know?) ....

I was just looking at those also. See attached pictures. The first, all-original, went for 905. If I'd seen that auction I'd have bid it higher. The other one, advertised as from one of our member's collection, was factory-refinished with a Victory finish and stocks during the war and went for 1275. The late-war P proofs confirm the re-visit to the factory. It has the S on the butt, although not on the sideplate.

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by JH1951

Stocks on the blue one were diamond checkered. Condition was very nice 90%+. Went for just under $1000. (Should have had 'service' stocks, correct? And I would have expected a parkerized finish, but what do I know?)

At that serial number, we would expect a Carbonia blue finish - too early for any of the wartime finishes (there were at least three and relatively few were Parkerized because the Parker company wanted a royalty).

The stocks shown in Absalom's first two photos (showing that gun) are period correct. The smooth stocks didn't come into use until a bit later.

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by Absalom

It has the S on the butt, although not on the sideplate.

So it must have visited the factory quite late in the war. The new sliding hammer block safety wasn't implemented until December, 1944. The earliest batch of examples shipped in January, 1945.

Thanks for the pics. They were great!

[chiefdave]

Great find. Being retired from the Navy I would love to have one of these if I could find one at a reasonable price.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by JP@AK

So it must have visited the factory quite late in the war. The new sliding hammer block safety wasn't implemented until December, 1944. The earliest batch of examples shipped in January, 1945.
...

Being a Navy gun, it’s a candidate for having been part of that refurbishment contract for 40,000 guns from May 1945 which included the hammer block conversion. That would also explain its relatively excellent condition; the war was mostly over.

It does not appear to have been topstrap-stamped, which I would have expected for a Navy gun given the updated triple P proofing.

[opoefc]

Archive documentation indicates there were 10 shipments from S&W to the Navy of 300 guns each. Later research found an additional shipment of 350 guns. That does not mean there are 3350 U.S.N.P.C. guns, necessarily.
it's possible that some of the first 10 shipments were short of the 300 guns believe to be in the shipments, and the 11th shipment of 350 guns made up any differences. I recently lettered 759988 as shipped on May 28, 1941, and Jinks said it was part of the 350 gun shipment with blue finish and checkered walnut stocks. Navy archives indicate that 35 U.S.N.C.P.C. guns were shipped to Bethlehem Steel Co. as Guard guns. Also, check Charlie Pates' article in the Jan-Feb 1999 issue of Man @Arms and also his article in the S&WCA Collector's Assoc. Journal on these revolvers. Ed.

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by opoefc

I recently lettered 759988 as shipped on May 28, 1941, and Jinks said it was part of the 350 gun shipment with blue finish and checkered walnut stocks.

Very helpful, Ed. So if shipment #10 was on May 10, as Pate says, then the May 28 shipment would have been the final "make up" shipment. Makes good sense to me and is a nice tidbit to add to the knowledge base.

Navy archives indicate that 35 U.S.N.C.P.C. guns were shipped to Bethlehem Steel Co. as Guard guns.

Also good info to have.

Thanks!!!

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by Absalom

It does not appear to have been topstrap-stamped, which I would have expected for a Navy gun given the updated triple P proofing.

Well, yes, but if it was only returned for the safety upgrade, would they have added the property stamp on the top strap? Seems unlikely, and this one was obviously shipped before those marks came into use. The U.S.N.C.P.C. guns were not part of the Navy Contract, which wasn't entered unto until after December 8, 1941. The U.S.N.C.P.C. contract was agreed to nearly a year earlier. So we wouldn't expect those guns to have the Navy mark on the top.

In addition, by May, '45, the Navy marking was far in the past.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by JP@AK

Well, yes, but if it was only returned for the safety upgrade, would they have added the property stamp on the top strap? Seems unlikely, and this one was obviously shipped before those marks came into use. The U.S.N.C.P.C. guns were not part of the Navy Contract, which wasn't entered unto until after December 8, 1941. The U.S.N.C.P.C. contract was agreed to nearly a year earlier. So we wouldn't expect those guns to have the Navy mark on the top.
...

Not the Navy, but the US property stamp.

This hypothesis of mine is admittedly based on only one data point which I’ve presented here before. A pretty persuasive one, though.

Pre-Victory 910507 shipped to the DSC warehouse in a shipment of 100 in January 1942; no stamps were applied to these at the time. When I acquired it, however, it had the US PROPERTY GHD stamp with flaming bomb and the triple P proof. The possibility of a fake can be dismissed because its appearance is absolutely authentic and these marks are in no way value-enhancing.

Since the property mark was only applied to military guns and not before mid-1943, and the triple P proofs, acc. to Pate, not before early 1944, the gun must have returned to the factory for repairs, not refinish (it’s still all-original) in 1944, at which time it was in military possession. It was repaired and went through the ordnance inspection, at which time the missing triple P proofs and property marks were applied.

That’s what makes me think that if a military gun went through remedial P proofing, it could also be expected to get any missing property stamp. But as I said, just a working hypothesis.

It was most likely among the batch of guns which were, per Pate, transferred from DSC stores to the Navy in early 1942. I had Bill check the SWHF files, but unfortunately he found nothing on this serial.

[two-bit cowboy]

Originally Posted by Absalom

... and the triple P proofs, acc. to Pate, not before early 1944,....

Well, not precisely.

My Victory, sans property stamp, shipped on December 15, 1943, to Navy Norfolk. It has the triple P proofs.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by two-bit cowboy

Well, not precisely.

My Victory, sans property stamp, shipped on December 15, 1943, to Navy Norfolk. It has the triple P proofs.

The missing property stamp is interesting. That’s why I like to hedge my bets; anything is possible. The P stamps fit into the general time frame. A few months plus or minus are always presumed, especially when S&W is involved