British Victory help

[Diamondbacks]

Hello, Last month I was able to pick up my very first Victories, both are lend-lease and posted pictures here and received alot of help understanding just what I have. Since then I acquired a P37 canvas holster and just recently a correct cleaning rod? the cleaning rod is stamped and is 9 1/4 in. long, theres no way it'll fit onto the P37 holster, which has room for a 6 1/2 in. rod. So did they have a holster just for the .38 Victories? if no, what did they do with the issued 9 1/4 in. cleaning rod? and what cleaning rod is used with the P37 holster? thankyou

[Absalom]

My familiarity with cleaning accessories is limited, but as far as I know, the standard 9.5 inch cleaning rod was US issue and was separately procured by the US military.

According to Pate, only the wire brush was included in the box of the BSR. So when you say “a correct cleaning rod”, how did you establish that?

I do not know what the British cleaning kit for revolvers looked like, but I would assume that’s where one would have to look.

[Diamondbacks]

bought 2 cleaning rods from a ad. listed as 2 british cleaning rods 1st was a SW .38 (which is 9 1/4 in.) 2nd was a Webley .455 (which is 9 1/2 in.) stamped with a broad arrow. Ive been searching for what the BSR would of had, but iam coming up empty. anyone have a photo of the cleaning rod, that came with the P37 holster. As far as the P37 holster, was that the standard, generic holster for all of the BSR's? or is there a correct holster for the lend-lease Victories?

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by Diamondbacks

...Ive been searching for what the BSR would of had, but iam coming up empty. anyone have a photo of the cleaning rod, that came with the P37 holster. As far as the P37 holster, was that the standard, generic holster for all of the BSR's? or is there a correct holster for the lend-lease Victories?

There aren't too many "action pictures" showing clearly identifiable BSR's, but the two I have show standard British holsters which were used indiscriminately for Enfield, Webley, S&W, and Colt as issued, all with the 5" barrels except for some early S&W BSR's with 6" barrels where they must have improvised.

One picture shows the cleaning rod, a long one secured with a lanyard.

PS: Also check out this old thread from another forum. It seems there were a variety of lengths in circulation among the British, and they didn't specifically come with the holster type:

Enfield No2Mk1 Revolver cleaning rod info needed.

[Targets Guy]

Here is my genuine RAF holster. The BSRs and Victorys fit just fine.

[PJGP]

Further to what I said on the other forum, Enfield, Webley and S&W 38s were clearly regarded as being interchangeable from the user's point of view. The Pattern '37 was the standard 38 holster and the standard cleaning rod was the one for the 6" Webley 455.

Notes on the S&W M&P written by British military staff in Washington in 1943 gives as an accessory "Rods, cleaning, pistol, revolver, cal .38, Trade Pattern". These were obviously S&W "wipers". A while ago someone was selling (on Ebay I think it was) packets of these with what was clearly a British military label. I have three wipers of different lengths, but all are long enough to clean a 6" barrel. I have no idea what length S&W would have supplied with what you Yanks call a BSR.

Peter

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by PJGP

... I have three wipers of different lengths, but all are long enough to clean a 6" barrel. I have no idea what length S&W would have supplied with what you Yanks call a BSR.

Peter

Hi Peter. Good to hear from you. I noticed your contribution on the old thread and thought this would likely fall within your expertise.

As I indicated above, S&W does not appear to have supplied any rods directly with the Victorys, just the wire brush in the kraft box. Smith & Wesson, just like Colt, did sell the government large batches of cleaning rods, their standard commercial type, but the US military procured these rods separately, and the same would have applied to the British. Those are likely the “trade pattern” rods in the notes you mentioned. After all, a 5” long .38 barrel remains just that across the brands.

[Texas Star]

In the holster photo, the NZ machinegunner's asst. has the flap of his holster tucked behind the belt. The man in the right hand photo has the open top holster for tank crews. It originally had a much longer strap, but many were shortened, as with this one. Note the loops for six cartridges on the holster.

The Vickers gun crew was photographed at Monte Cassino. A very hard battle, fought largely against German paratroopers.

Both revolvers shown are S&W 's.

I think M-37 holsters were also used with the .45 autos used by many Commando and paratrop units. Holsters for Browning Hi-Powers are very different.

[ordnanceguy]

Gentlemen:

I believe that the copper washed rods were supplied by Smith & Wesson as accessories for the .38-200 Victory guns. I don't think that they were packed in the cardboard box that each gun was shipped in. The boxes and type of labeling are similar to the packaging used for S&W supplied spare parts.

Somewhere I have in my archives a letter from Roy Jinks which gives the history of these rods. (Indeed, it is so safely archived that I can't even find it now.) These rods, or "wipers" in S&W factory parlance, are still easily located today. I have observed unopened boxes marked for 5 rods and those for 10 rods.



The other rods employed, as mentioned by Peter above, were the steel rods used for the other British designed revolvers. The images below depict these rods with Australian D/|\D property markings. They, too, are relatively easy to find today.

[AlanDavid]

Charlie, the copper wash rods in packages look to have British style labels. As you say these were the type sent to the UK.
There is the famous photo of a group of ATS girls unpacking from cardboard boxes, what look to be Lend Lease S&W's. I cannot find the photo on my computer but it is well known. From memory these did not have rods in the box.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

[Absalom]

Alan:

Might you be referring to this one? Pate has it in his book. It was the first thing I checked when this thread came up

[Mk VII]

Huge quantities of these copper-washed rods were released some years ago, still packed in the boxes as above, with straw inside. I've still got some somewhere.

[AlanDavid]

Yes that the photo. I think a higher resolution copy can be found on the Imperial War Museum website, which will have information on the location the photo was taken and the date.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

[Waveski]

Very cool old photograph. Lots to drool over. I MEAN THE REVOLVERS!!!

That said , there sure does not look to be any system or procedure governing the unpacking process.