So I’m at my FFL picking up my new to me Model 19.

As I’m filling out 4473 he asks to look at a S&W and I say sure. Just a few minutes later he brings this gun out in a plastic sandwich bag completely disassembled. Say “What is this?”

I’m Immediately stymied. It’s 5 screw K-Frame, It has a 4 inch Barrel. With correct roll marks and states S&W .38 Special. So I immediately think pre- 10 or other earlier M&P. As I begin looking at the gun and I become confused. I’m thinking it may be a European knock off or FrankenGun.

I told him I’d post it here and the experts weigh in on what’s this may be.

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Additional photo’s

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Can you post a shot of the right side with side plate?

Edit: I see you just did.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just posted

It looks like a Spanish copy that has had a S&W barrel installed on it. Is there a number stamped under the barrel flat?

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

**** I knew I forgot something. I’ll have him send me pic.

Something not right here. Trademark is wrong. Pinned half moon looks wrong. What is that mark in front of the serial number? No reason to buy this gun unless you are in to this sort of thing.

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Some collect art; I shoot it!

Hell, I’m not interested in it. He just asked if we
Could identify it.

Mike

Can't imagine that there is much value there.

The lug inside he back strap looks wrong to me, the ratchet is wrong. The trademark isn't S&W. Has some S&W parts installed.

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Reserve Officer 9yrs

Probably a Spanish knockoff, possibly Khyber Pass. I tend to agree that the bbl. is factory, but the locking bolt pin is too big, and the pinned front sight is wrong. That lug on the inside of the backstrap looks like the pivot for a Colt-style rebound lever, and there's no mainspring seat at the bottom or strain screw in the front.
The sideplate logo could be that of Orbea y Hermanos, a known S&W copier in Spain.
Not a Smith & Wesson.

I think we have a winner

At least the logo picture is a variation on the Orbea motif. The comparison photo is from a confirmed Orbea S&W copy from the 1920s.

Attached Images

Orbea copy.jpg (67.0 KB, 101 views)

...photo below of an Orbea y Hermanos revolver...

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A Country Boy Can Survive

They use a mix of S&W & Colt DA style lockwork with the Colt V style mainspring.
The lug w/ the small hole inside the frame is a support fixture for the V shaped mainspring. A small pin is inserted in the hole and the bend in the spring sits on top of the pin and at the same time back against the inside of the backstrap.

The mainspring upper arm powers the hammer and has a fingers on it's end to hook into the hammer stirrup.
The lower arm is one piece that extends all the way forward to contact the hand and in turn the trigger. It provides return trigger and hand action.
Here it's a slight variation of the Colt DA where a separate arm powered by the lower arm of the main spring does that job.
The Colt trigger and hand return arm would be pinned in place on the inside of the backstrap as well.
These have the hand on the S&W side of the cyl even though the lockwork, ratchet and hand design is more Colt than s&W.

A lot of these were made for the French Army in WW1 just as the flood of small 32auto pistols made in Spain were.
The revolvers were to chamber the French 8mmLebel revolver cartridge and were to supplement the issue Model 1892 French revolver in 8mmL.
The French called these Espagnols Modele 92 (sp?),,'Spanish Model 92'
Hermanos was a large mfg'r of these along with a long list of others.

Production continued after WW1,,a good market world wide for them.
Cal 32-20 was a popular round (very close to the 8mmLebel revolver rd in spec).
Lot's of variations, patents of others didn't seem to mean much to them in their design and mfg'r!
Many (not all) were chambered & marked for 38 Long (38Largo) on their bbl, but the chambers often were bored straight through or were deep enough to take a 38special.
38Largo was a popular export caliber to South & Central America

Orbea Hermanos is one of the more common S&W copys from Spain. Most of them are pretty nice revolvers too.
Like all Spanish made arms from that early to mid 20thC period they can run all over the QC range. But many are very nicely made.

Just speculating:
An Orbea frame with a (modified) S&W barrel.
Maybe a home gunsmithing project to convert one of those 8mm/.32-20s to .38.

Actually, Spanish arms manufacturers, concentrated in the Basque country of Northern Spain, took advantage of a quirk in Spanish patent law, which invalidated patents within the country unless the patented device was actually manufactured there within a certain time span of the original patent being granted.

Since neither John M. Browning nor Smith & Wesson ever set up production in Spain, the Eibar gun makers could happily and quite legally adapt Browning’s 1903 design, leading to the Ruby pistol, and build whatever S&W revolver they wanted, usually the M&P.

Of course they could not sell in any country that recognized international patents, but during WW I the French had other worries, and as mentioned, after the war most of the S&W copies were exported to Latin America where Yanqui guns were desirable and nobody asked questions.

Taint no szmit ein vesson.

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