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Old 05-12-2018, 01:44 AM
cjwils cjwils is offline
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Default 1917 What do I have?

I recently picked up a Smith and Wesson 1917 that has lots of military indications but also has a civilian S&W insignia on the right side plate. (In case you cannot tell from the photo, the right side insignia is definitely S&W, not Brazilian.) The butt shows US Army Model 1917 150683. That number is also on the bottom of the barrel and the rear face of the cylinder. The crane has the number 22600, and that number is also on the frame in the crane cutout. The gun has a flaming bomb on the upper left rear of the frame. In three locations I see a little symbol that I understand might be an eagle, and under that symbol is S24 in one location and S2 in two other locations. The stocks are smooth walnut that appear to be military style, but they do not match this gun. On the inside of one stock is a pencil number that I cannot completely read, but it appears to be in the 30,000 range. On the right side of the barrel are two symbols that I cannot interpret and the letters NP.

My camera is not great at extreme close ups, so I don’t have photos of some of these details. I could try to take close up pictures if that is necessary.

My guess is that this was a military gun made during WW1, and it went through some rehabilitation process after 1920 when the right side plate was changed for some reason and replacement stocks were installed.

The finish seems to be original and is mostly in decent condition for its age.

Is this a decent collectable, or just a shooter with minimal historical interest? Would I gain anything by lettering it?
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Old 05-12-2018, 02:21 AM
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That's awfully good looking, but you're right it's had some rework and has a post 1935 commercial large logo on the side plate.

First thing to do is pull the side plate and confirm the # stamped on the inside is different than the 22600 in the yoke and yoke cut in the frame (Colts have cranes, S&Ws have yokes), or no # at all.

Use magnification on the eagles and you'll see an eagle head pointing upwards with the S24 and S2 underneath; they're inspection stamps.

Second, pull off the left grip and check for a date stamped on the left side of the grip frame near the toe and an R S near the heel.

The marks with NP on the barrel is anybody's guess but maybe a civilian mark or rack # for a guard service, private or Govt agency, or etc. A close up of the marks would really help. Also a shot of the other side.
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Old 05-12-2018, 02:49 AM
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That is a good looking 1917 with concave grips. My guess (WAG) is that it went back to the factory at some point and the logo was put on it then. A interesting S&W 1917 for sure.
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Old 05-12-2018, 06:24 AM
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I zoomed in on the right side of the barrel and the “symbols” next to “NP” appear to be British proofs. The NP and associated marks would signify that the gun was nitro proved. Try to get a photo of the proof marks.

The gun doesn’t appear to have the “Not English Made” stamp. My guess is it went to Great Britain under Lend Lease, but wasn’t sold commercially after the war. I don’t know why it has the S&W trademark, but I’d pull the sideplate and check the number on the inside.

Do your barrel markings look like this?

1917 What do I have?-000_0272-jpg
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Old 05-12-2018, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by s&wchad View Post
I zoomed in on the right side of the barrel and the “symbols” next to “NP” appear to be British proofs. The NP and associated marks would signify that the gun was nitro proved. Try to get a photo of the proof marks.

The gun doesn’t appear to have the “Not English Made” stamp. My guess is it went to Great Britain under Lend Lease, but wasn’t sold commercially after the war. I don’t know why it has the S&W trademark, but I’d pull the sideplate and check the number on the inside.

Do your barrel markings look like this?
s&Wchad,

Good eye! That NP was ringing a bell, I just couldn't come up with it this early.

W/o the 'NOT ENGLISH MAKE', it came back before 1925, but I think the USA only lent-leased 1917s for WWII. So more likely came back across the big pond thru unofficial channels, as in a duffel bag.
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Old 05-12-2018, 09:17 AM
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The serial number on the butt dates it to December, 1918. So it should have left the factory just after the war ended (November, 1918). But it has the early stocks and the logo on the sideplate, so you wonder if it somehow never left or if it left and came back. Who put what parts on it and when may be impossible to determine. It may just be worth a $75 letter, but that's up to you.

I think Chad is right about the symbols. If you can't get a close up photo, just describe them. If crowns are involved, the English had it at least for a while. NP does indeed mean Nitro Proofed.

Note that those concave stocks are very desirable and people will pay a pretty penny for them.
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Old 05-12-2018, 09:38 AM
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So more likely came back across the big pond thru unofficial channels, as in a duffel bag.
My thoughts exactly!
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Old 05-12-2018, 10:09 AM
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cjwils, is the head of the ejector rod in the white? Is "United States Property" stamped under the barrel?
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Old 05-12-2018, 11:17 AM
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Here is the OP again.

It does say "United States Property" on the bottom of the barrel. I should have included that in my first post.

The stamps beside the letters NP on the right side of the barrel look like the crowns in the photo shown by Jackflash above.

Wiregrassguy, I am not sure what you mean by the head of the ejector rod. Is it the ckeckered steel knob on the ejector, or the little shaft that slides in a sleeve under the barrel? That little shaft is white on my gun.
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Old 05-12-2018, 11:20 AM
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I will try to see if there are any markings under the sideplate. But first, are there any tricks to taking the sideplate off? I know that taking the sideplate off a Colt revolver is more complicated than you might think, but I don't know how that compares to the sideplate on a Smith.
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Old 05-12-2018, 11:49 AM
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Remove the screws, USING A HOLLOW GROUND GUN SMITHING SCREWDRIVER, hold the revolver with the side plate up and then tap the grip frame with something soft, like a wooden hammer handle or the handle of a screwdriver. The side plate will work itself off.

If you remove the cylinder, beware there is (or was) a spring loaded pin in the yoke. This is a cylinder hold open devise. It will probably be stuck with old gummed up oil, but it could be free and shoot out if you're not careful.
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Old 05-12-2018, 01:03 PM
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The head of the ejector rod is the knurled mushroom shaped knob. When you unlatch the cylinder and open it out, you can see the head of the knob that connects with the latch bolt to secure the front of the ejector rod. That head should be in the white, not blued. Often, if the gun has been refinished, the head has been blued.

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Old 05-13-2018, 12:50 AM
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The head looks in the white, but actually case hardened, they just didn't show much color.
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Old 05-13-2018, 05:03 PM
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I got the side plate off, and I found 22600 in a cutout on the inner surface of the side plate. That is the same as the number on the yoke and on the frame cutout behind the yoke.

I also removed the grips again. On the left edges of the grip frame under the grips, I see a small diamond, and the numbers 61, L2, and 866 in different locations.

The head of the ejector knob does seem to have been blued. I still think that other parts of the gun do not show signs of rebluing, because the edges and corners of the all the lettering look really sharp.

There are still a lot of questions. Could it be that the grip frame, cylinder, and barrel from an old WW1 era Army gun were put on a newer gun for the lend lease program in WW2?

Would a S&W history letter tell me anything about the number 22600, or would they refer only to the Army number - 150683?
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Old 05-13-2018, 05:27 PM
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Let's start with the 866, that appears to be a date; Aug. 1966 when it went back to S&W for a rework.

At that time the sideplate was either replaced and if so, Smith would have re-stamped it with a matching assembly #22600. More likely however, the original sideplate was stamped with the current 1966 large logo on it as part of the refinishing.

The diamond on the grip frame indicates a rework.

The 61 and L2 are normal inspection stamps, likely original.

The protocol in 1966 was to blue the ejector knob.

You need a historical letter, although it won't speak to the rework, it's necessary before you can request rework documents from the S&W Historical Foundation.
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Old 05-15-2018, 06:23 PM
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I sent off for a historical letter. Will let you know the result in a few weeks.

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Old 06-02-2018, 08:11 PM
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Got my historical letter today. Impressive turnaround time of barely two weeks. The letter says my 1917 revolver left the factory in January 1919 and went to the US Army depot in Springfield Mass. But that is about all that it says about my gun. My message requesting the letter mentioned unique characteristics of my gun; such as the commercial S&W logo on the sideplate, possibly from the 1930s; the British proofmarks, possibly associated with the lend-lease program of WW2; and the date on the grip frame, possibly indicating a factory or arsenal refurbishment in the 1960s. None of those unique features got any comments in the letter.

Can I do anything to learn more? I hope it does not cost a bundle to take additional steps.
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Old 06-02-2018, 09:05 PM
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cj,

Please see post #15 again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
You need a historical letter, although it won't speak to the rework, it's necessary before you can request rework documents from the S&W Historical Foundation.
That's a typical factory letter for a 1917. The only other info a letter may contain is special options ordered when it was shipped. It will not address non-factory or factory changes that happened subsequent to original shipping.

Once the letter is obtained, you can request more info from the Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation which has so far been able to digitize and index its records for certain years which may not cover your gun. Donations are very much appreciated to further their progress. So you can still apply for info.

There's no cost unless they find something. Since your gun has a factory rework date, it's very likely you can acquire archived records for that factory work from here:Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation - Letter Process - Insuring that the rich history of Smith & Wesson will continue for generations to come
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Old 06-02-2018, 09:13 PM
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Jim, did you mean to include a link after your second paragraph?

Thanks for your input.
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Old 06-02-2018, 09:17 PM
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It's at the bottom.
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:35 PM
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Sent off a request to the historical foundation today, including a copy of the factory letter and descriptions of the unique features on this gun. Not sure how long it will take to get a reply, but I am looking forward to it.
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:52 PM
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Im seeing about three weeks on a Jinks Letter, box to box. Good letter to get.
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Old 06-12-2018, 05:08 PM
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The Proof Act of 1955 eliminated the "Not English make", the NP is Nitro Proof, The Crown with CP is London Proof the other I cannot see it properly in the photo. If can please describe it to me I might be able to find the other one.
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Old 06-12-2018, 06:59 PM
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gmborkovic, I am not talking about a Jenks letter now. I am a step beyond that.
See post 18 for a link to the next step.

nudge, I am attaching my photo of the NP and crowns. The photo up above is an example from someone else's gun. I am sorry that I don't have a camera that does great close ups.
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:23 PM
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Looks like a V ,its a view mark from the London proof house
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:05 PM
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So how did a 1917 S&W get a London proof mark? That is why I requested more info beyond the Jenks' letter.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjwils View Post
So how did a 1917 S&W get a London proof mark? That is why I requested more info beyond the Jenks' letter.
In your post # 17, you mentioned the Lend-Lease program. I believe some 1917s were sent to England via that program. Also, after Dunkirk, there was a drive to send guns to England to defend against a possible German invasion.

To leave England after WW II, firearms had pass British proof.
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Old 06-13-2018, 03:56 AM
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These proof Mark's are London marks as previously stated. Crown V is the View Mark, Crown CP is the Provisional Proof Mark and NP is the Final, or Difinitive Nitro Proof Mark. CP and V are encircled because it is a foreign made (Not English Make) firearm. If the arm were of English make, the letters would have no circular surround.
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Old 07-27-2018, 01:54 PM
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Got my letter from the Historical Foundation yesterday. (This is not the Jenks letter, as discussed earlier. We are beyond that.) Unfortunately, no further information was found by them. Nothing about the factory rework, nothing about the British proof marks, etc. Looks like my research on this 1917 has reached a dead end.
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:00 PM
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Oh well, time to just enjoy owning and shooting a very fine example 1917.

If we could teach it to speak English, that's the only way we can get its hidden life and travels.

Thanks for sharing it.
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:39 PM
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Just an FYI it is "JINKS" not Jenks.
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