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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 05-19-2018, 06:45 PM
Quattr09 Quattr09 is offline
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Default Yet Another .38S&W Victory Proof Help Request

Hi everyone,

There seem to be a few gurus on these firearms here, so I was hoping someone my be able to succeed where I have failed in identifying the proofs, and possible history of the Victory I just acquired. Beyond it likely being a lend-lease gun, I can't figure out based on the markings where it may have ended up.
Any help is appreciated, thank you!

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Old 05-19-2018, 07:08 PM
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You missed showing the critical caliber marking on the right side of the barrel. Should read, .38 S&W ctg., not .38 S&W Special. This, with five-inch barrel, is almost surely a British Service Revolver, nicknamed BSR on this board.

It may have been re-chambered after the war by some dealer to .38 Special. That is not a really satisfactory conversion. This one doesn't seem to be so marked.

See any British or Commonwealth property or proof marks?

Used by all Commonwealth nations, and over 568,000 supplied during the war.

Last edited by Texas Star; 05-19-2018 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 05-19-2018, 07:15 PM
Quattr09 Quattr09 is offline
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Oops! I did forget to upload that one, but it is exactly as you describe, reading: ".38 S&W CTG" with two markings at each end of that text - which again, I've failed to find out the meaning of. Uploaded it to the galley.

I'm really confused, because when I found it, all signs pointed to it being a BSR, but there's not a single British proof to be found.
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Old 05-19-2018, 07:39 PM
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I don't see any particular British markings. All the stamps appear to be standard S&W fitters and inspectors marks.

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Old 05-19-2018, 08:11 PM
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It is a lend-lease BSR. The "United States Property" stamp on the topstrap establishes that. It is not one sold off as surplus by the British in the 1950s-60s as it does not have the usual British proof stamps so it is probably a bringback by some GI. The SN would date its shipment at about March to May 1943. GHD is Col. Guy Humphrey Drewry, who was the U. S. Army Ordnance District officer responsible for acceptance under the purchase contract. The other stampings are just various fitter/inspector stamps. I would expect that yours has probably not been bored to accept .38 Special cartridges, and that is very good. You should check that for yourself. This one is in unusually good original condition. Looks like the base of one of the grips may have been painted red for some reason. I have no idea what the number 46 stamped into the base of the other grip means, possibly a rack number. That would have been done outside the factory. One more thing - the 5876 stamped in the frame yoke area is an assembly matching number, just to keep fitted parts together. It has no other significance.

There is no way to "tell where it ended up" except that it is now in your possession.

Last edited by DWalt; 05-19-2018 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 05-19-2018, 08:31 PM
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DWalt has explained your BSR . Further info. is that it did not get a proof stamps by the Brits, as they did not proof military handguns received from S&W. BSRs seen with proofs stamps are guns that were sold surplus by the Brits after WW2 to gun dealers in England who were then required to get the guns proofed for sale to the public in Britain. Its also possible the gun did not go to Britain, but to one of the commonwealth nations and was sold surplus to US import dealers after WW2. The two little symbols before and after the .38 S&W stamp on the barrel are part of the caliber stamping die and have a name that I can't recall at the moment. (Dingbats?) Decorative only. The 4 digit number stamped on the left side of the frame and seen when the cylinder is opened is an assembly number used during manufacture to reassembled parts separated for bluing, etc. The small stamp in the butt above GHD's stamp in the "Flaming Bomb" final inspection stamp of Springfield Armory, applied by Guy H. Drewry. Ed.
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Old 05-19-2018, 08:43 PM
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You guys are incredible. Thank you so much.
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Old 05-19-2018, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by opoefc View Post
DWalt has explained your BSR . Further info. is that it did not get a proof stamps by the Brits, as they did not proof military handguns received from S&W. ....
Minor correction: The Brits did proof military handguns received from S&W until lend-lease shipments started in late 1941; all V-prefix (Victory) BSR's shipped after that, so any markings on those are indeed post-war as explained.

The lighting in the photos gives the finish a strange greenish tint. Others here seem to have no doubts, but combined with the ill-fitting sideplate and at least the appearance that the ejector rod has the same finish as the barrel/frame, which it shouldn't, it makes me uncertain of the finish's originality.
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Old 05-20-2018, 12:09 AM
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Good looking Victory.
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
Minor correction: The Brits did proof military handguns received from S&W until lend-lease shipments started in late 1941; all V-prefix (Victory) BSR's shipped after that, so any markings on those are indeed post-war as explained.

The lighting in the photos gives the finish a strange greenish tint. Others here seem to have no doubts, but combined with the ill-fitting sideplate and at least the appearance that the ejector rod has the same finish as the barrel/frame, which it shouldn't, it makes me uncertain of the finish's originality.
In fact the S&W revolvers ordered by the British Purchasing Commission and shipped to the UK direct from S&W were not proofed at either of the two commercial proof houses being in Birmingham and London. This was not required as they were a direct military purchase and not being purchased through the S&W UK agent at the time. Most but not all of these revolvers were inspected at at the Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield, and marked with an Enfield inspection stamp. Some handguns purchased by the BPC prior to Lend Lease were proofed upon arrival in the UK, but this was a military proof of two crossed pennants.
After Lend Lease delivery to the UK at the very end of 1941 there was no inspection marking applied, inspection being more a case of marking the serial number off the shipping manifest.

Wartime S&W revolvers with British commercial proof marks will have been proofed after they were sold by the Government and been paid for by the trade purchaser, prior to resale.

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Old 05-20-2018, 09:50 AM
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I know they painted the fore arms on lend lease grands red to signifie a different caliber you suppose they did it on pistols for some reason
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanDavid View Post
......Most but not all of these revolvers were inspected at at the Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield, and marked with an Enfield inspection stamp. Some handguns purchased by the BPC prior to Lend Lease were proofed upon arrival in the UK, but this was a military proof of two crossed pennants.
After Lend Lease delivery to the UK at the very end of 1941 there was no inspection marking applied, ....
Yes, that is exactly what I was talking about. It is curious that the majority, but not all BSR’s that were part of the BPC shipments received the Enfield marks and crossed-pennant proof. While I have not collected the data on this, I have observed BSR’s with ship dates very close together from May 1941 with and without markings. Likely just war-time inconsistencies.

It is my understanding that the Enfield marking ceased when and because the BPC-shipped guns (actually acquired by the British government) transitioned to lend-lease guns already marked UNITED STATES PROPERTY, which were not technically British property.
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Old 05-22-2018, 03:54 AM
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I know they painted the fore arms on lend lease grands red to signifie a different caliber you suppose they did it on pistols for some reason
Yes some pistols did receive the red paint. Notably some but not all of the Colt Government Model pistols in .38 Super. Also some of the M1917 .45acp revolvers that were purchased in July 1940 through the U.S. Steel Corp had the red band applied to the barrel. Some pistols still have the remains of this embedded the lettering on the barrel.

Also some of the Lewis machine guns in 30/06 that were purchased at the same time had the red paint treatment as well. I know I have got a Savage made aircraft gun in 30/06 that had this until the dealer I bought it through re-blued the gun!!!

I am sure some other MG's in 30/06 would have had the same treatment.

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Old 05-22-2018, 03:40 PM
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P17s got it as well, as they were so similar to the .303 ones.

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Old 05-22-2018, 07:18 PM
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The small figure before and after the caliber marking (or most any roll die line marking of that era) was called a 'foot' in the die cutting trade.

It could be most anything from a hyphen, asterisk, small cross, ect to a any more complicated figure.

It's job was to ease the roll die onto the piece being impressed.
The 'foot' walked onto the surface first and will place a deep first impression as it takes the full pressure of the roll die fixture (spring loaded or hand activated at the time).
Then the die rolls off of the foot and begins an evenly layed down impression before the foot at the other end of the line does the same job. It allows the last letter(s) of the roll die to be uniform with the rest of the impression and then that 'foot' takes the last full or likely uneven pressure as the die is walked off the work.
Without it the first and last letters of the line can be somewhat distorted and elongated also. The die characters of the first and last letters come into and off of the work at a slight angle with out it.
With the 'foot' they become the second and the second to last characters to imprint.

Some markings you will find a 'foot' placed in an overly long space betw two words.
That to avoid the die bottoming out on the work surface as it rolls through the void on the die.
It would cause the same heavy impressions in the last and first letter(s) of the words on either side of the spacing as it would on the first and last words of the entire line.

Modern computer guided impression equipment doesn't need such things anymore with lasers reading depth of impressions and guiding the dies themselves. Much of todays markings aren't even done with dies anymore.
But that's why those little characters show up on the older stuff and still hang around on some of the new if not for just the old time look.
No mystical or secret messages involved in them , just part of the die trade.

More than you ever wanted to know about dingbats..
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