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Old 06-14-2018, 08:36 PM
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Default Inherited M&P 38

Looking for born on date for what I believe to be a pre-war M&P 38 special. It's a 4 screw (3 on right side and one in trigger guard), screw in front side of grip frame, no model #'s anywhere, and serial# 593xxx (no letters). Four inch barrel. Any info you could give me would be appreciated.

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Old 06-14-2018, 08:56 PM
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If thereís a screw in the top of the right hand side plate Iíd guess that if you pulled the grips youíll find a ď5thĒ screw.
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:58 PM
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With that serial, which would place the gun in the late 1920s, there should be 4 screws on the side. Usually in such cases, it turns out that the gun wears non-original post-war stocks which extend up and cover the sideplate screw farthest back.

PS: For a data point, I have a reference to #595523 shipping in February 1929, so yours likely shipped sometime not too long before that.

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Old 06-14-2018, 09:35 PM
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Just after reading your post I grabbed a screwdriver and popped the grips off. Sure enough, there was a screw behind the grips. Thanks so much for your quick response and sharing your wisdom of these great old firearms.

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Old 06-14-2018, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgoat View Post
Just after reading your post I grabbed a screwdriver and popped the grips off. Sure enough, there was a screw behind the grips.
For future reference, the four screw sideplate on the K frames lasted until c. 1956. The first screw to go was the top one, up near the hammer. So, four screw guns are often mistaken for two or three screw guns, since some people don't know to count the one in the front of the trigger guard (they actually became four screw frames in '56). The trigger guard screw went away in 1959-61, depending on the model (actually, it is the cylinder stop plunger retaining screw). After that, they were all three screw guns.

To complicate matters further, K frames originally had only four screws, because the cylinder stop plunger retaining screw wasn't used until c. 1905. So, the order is: 4 screw, then 5 screw, then (postwar) four screw again - but a different four - then three screw.

Have fun with all that trivia!
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:22 AM
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We love pictures
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:41 AM
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Several photos from different angles would help. Did you purchase or inherit this gun?
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:37 AM
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This gun was "inherited" from a friend with not much time left on the clock. He purchased it in the 60's and only fired it once or twice in all those years. I suspect the weapon was reblued and possibly re-barreled at some point in it's nearly 90 years. The front sight is not the half moon style, but more of a 1/4 moon with ramp style I've seen on the post war models. The bluing is surprisingly good with some wear on all the leading edges. As far as pics go, I took some (phone)with the intention of posting them, but when trying to import them they wind up getting cropped. If I can figure it out I will post them. It's really a nice looking firearm. All the background and info I've received from all of you is much appreciated. Thanks guys

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Old 06-15-2018, 01:04 PM
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Under the grips on the left side near the bottom of the frame, I found the numbers 3 54 stamped. Would that indicate work done March of 1954? There appears to be markings on both sides around the bottom grip pins, but I can't make them out.The grips are a non-diamond, rounded tops which I'm told are probably circa 68' or later with numbers (I think) 35030. Thoughts?
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:32 PM
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Yes. The 3 54 stamped on the left side of the grip frame near the bottom, just above the toe, would indicated work by the Service Department in March, 1954. From what you posted earlier, it is a good bet the SD gave it a new barrel at that time. The front sight you described could easily be on a 1954 barrel. Also, in 1954, I would expect the SD to have put the frame's serial number on the barrel flat. Is it there?

The stocks clearly were not installed in 1954, for the reason you already stated.
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:03 PM
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Jack,

Thanks for the confirmation of work done by the SD. No numbers on barrel flat. I'm assuming that's the flat area on the bottom of the barrel in front of the crane. There is a matching serial# stamped on the rear of the cylinder.

Steve

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Old 06-15-2018, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgoat View Post
No numbers on barrel flat. I'm assuming that's the flat area on the bottom of the barrel in front of the crane.
Correct. (Note: On S&W revolvers, we call it a yoke. "Crane" is a word used by the company whose name is not used on this Forum! )

It is possible that by 1954, some SD people were no longer putting the serial number on replacement barrels. That had long been the practice, but eventually it was phased out. I'm not sure when.
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:00 PM
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Jack
Thanks for the clarification. I own revolvers with both "yokes" and "cranes". Hope I can keep all this info. organized in my feeble mind!
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:23 PM
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While we are on one of my favorite subjects,


Crane is yoke
Grips are stocks
Checkering is checking

I don't think that anyone really knows why the founders used these terms as opposed to those used by most other companies however, my feeling is that they wished to be different than their largest competitor from down the street in CT.

I hear that they also went way out of the way to not produce guns that used a caliber that had the four letter word that starts with a C and ends with a T on their guns.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSR III View Post
Crane is yoke
Grips are stocks
Checkering is checking

I don't think that anyone really knows why the founders used these terms as opposed to those used by most other companies however, my feeling is that they wished to be different than their largest competitor from down the street in CT.
Right. And most of us manage to use the S&W conventions except the third one. It is difficult to say or write "checking" I guess . . .
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP@AK View Post
Right. And most of us manage to use the S&W conventions except the third one. It is difficult to say or write "checking" I guess . . .
"Checking" is what I do to a mss. or when paying for groceries etc.

I know the "four letter word" company and have used many of their fine guns. But what does Ruger call the crane/yoke?
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Old 06-16-2018, 08:43 AM
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I found a schematic for a Ruger Redhawk, and they use "crane" to refer to that part.
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Old 06-16-2018, 12:15 PM
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Just to nitpick some more, many people, even if they use the ďpolitically correctĒ choice for S&W, use it wrong

Yoke is all too often used to describe the place where after 1957 the MOD number can be found and from where the uninformed copy the assembly assuming it to be the serial, because the other brand has its primary serial there and not on the butt.

But thatís actually not the yoke, but the yoke cut-out in the frame. The yoke is the thing that swings out and holds the cylinder.

On the other side of the fence, I donít see that happening much. Itís likely because crane more intuitively evokes a swinging motion. Yoke just makes people think about eggs
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Old 06-16-2018, 12:33 PM
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Yoke makes me think about a team of oxen. Yolk makes me think about eggs.
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Old 06-16-2018, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
Yoke is all too often used to describe the place where after 1957 the MOD number can be found and from where the uninformed copy the assembly assuming it to be the serial, because the other brand has its primary serial there and not on the butt.

But that’s actually not the yoke, but the yoke cut-out in the frame. The yoke is the thing that swings out and holds the cylinder.
Yep. I usually say "yoke cut."

Quote:
On the other side of the fence, I don’t see that happening much. It’s likely because crane more intuitively evokes a swinging motion. Yoke just makes people think about eggs
Ever hear of a wagon yoke? Or a yoke of oxen? Automotive differentials even have yokes.

We sometimes see people spell it "yolk." That's where the eggs come in . . .

Edit:
DRAT! OFT II jumped in ahead of me!
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Old 06-16-2018, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
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Yoke makes me think about a team of oxen. Yolk makes me think about eggs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP@AK View Post
.....
Ever hear of a wagon yoke? Or a yoke of oxen? Automotive differentials even have yokes.

We sometimes see people spell it "yolk." That's where the eggs come in . . .
...
Ahem.... if you guys seriously entertained the notion that I didnít know that, you donít read enough of my posts. I may have to keep my jokes at a less cerebral level
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Old 06-16-2018, 03:35 PM
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Ahem.... if you guys seriously entertained the notion that I didnít know that, you donít read enough of my posts. I may have to keep my jokes at a less cerebral level
I can't speak for anyone else, but I was just joking back at you.

I certainly didn't think I was telling you anything you didn't already know . . . I'm not THAT dumb.
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Old 06-16-2018, 04:46 PM
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Homophones can trip up the smartest people ...

Anybody ever wonder why President James Knox Polk rarely seems to be pronounced and accidentally spelled Poke?
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Old 06-16-2018, 06:32 PM
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Think I figured out my picture cropping issues. Given info that's been posted and discussed, could anyone venture a ballpark guess on value? I don't have any plans to part with this firearm but would like to have idea of worth for reference. Thanks in advance for your best guess.
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Old 06-16-2018, 08:37 PM
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Finish is decent but, yes, incorrect stocks (grips). Would be tough to get $400 in my neighborhood as the collectors would be out of the picture. $300 would probably sell pretty quick. As replacement value that's probably right.
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Old 06-16-2018, 08:53 PM
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...new ejector rod along with the barrel...original one would have been as appears below...a LERK...Large Ejector Rod Knob...

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Old 06-16-2018, 09:27 PM
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Thanks guys. Really appreciate your time, observations, and opinions.
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Old 06-16-2018, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
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new ejector rod along with the barrel.
Good catch! Whiffed on that one.
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Old 06-21-2018, 08:39 PM
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So in reality the yoke is on us?
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