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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 06-15-2018, 08:20 PM
unIVgiven unIVgiven is offline
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Hello everyone. I just picked up a M&P 38 and I am really confused about what I have. I was told it was a Victory revolver but I don't think so now. Any help dating or any information would be greatly appreciated. Also for some reason I can't upload the picture of the butt it does have a lanyard loop.
On the butt has number 722589. Yoke has number 57900. Back strap has 10052 with an arrow inside of a U. Under barrel in the hand ejector notch has V 588505 P. There are no other proof marks of any kind. Thank you. P.s. I probably paid way too much...$500
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:33 PM
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If the serial has a V prefix it is a Victory Model. Most are either a 4" in 38 Special for American forces or a 5" in 38 S&W for Great Britain. Likely has a lanyard or a hole for one on the butt. If complete and original 500 would be good for a 38 Special and a tad high for a British model.
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:39 PM
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Thanks, Art Doc. I have no idea how old it is and the number under the barrel is more confusing.
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:45 PM
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Has an arrow (point) inside of a U...

South African issued, probably in .38 S&W, not .38 Special. Tell us the EXACT caliber marking on the right side of the barrel. That or a large, sharp photo of the caliber marking should have been in your first post about this gun.

But that Broad Arrow in a U pretty much tells the tale.

Why that U? At the time, the country was the Union of South Africa. It didn't become the Republic of SA until 1960, or so. This was a result of leaving the British Commonwealth over the segregation issue, apartheid in Afrikaans.. That situation ended about 1994-95, and the flag changed.

Some No. 4 .303 rifles have also reached the USA with that Broad Arrow in a U stamp. South Africa made a different style of bayonet for those, BTW.

Measure the barrel, from the face of the cylinder to the muzzle. Remember, some of the barrel extends into the frame. SA received both four and five inch barrelled S&W .38's. Not sure about six-inch barrels, but Canada and Australia certainly got some.

Does your gun have a normal blued finish (1940-April 1942) or a dull gray finish? The latter also had smooth wood grips/stocks, not the previously checkered ones with silver medallions. This was a result of increased wartime demands causing production shortcuts.

If you are in South Africa, your gun may be a postwar commercial item, made for the police. S&W calls that variant Model 11. It has the usual commercial finish and stocks.

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Old 06-15-2018, 08:46 PM
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It appears the barrel has been swapped. The barrel SN starts with a V so it's from a Victory model. If there is no V on the butt, then you have a gun most likely purchased by the Brits before the U.S. entered WW2. Any numbers inside the yoke are meaningless factory assembly numbers and the numbers on the backstrap were added by the unit it was issued to. Yes, $500 for a mix match gun is quite a bit high. Next time you will know what to look for. Now the next question: Is it chambered for .38 Special or .38 S&W? What caliber is the barrel stamped for? You don't show that in your pics.
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:51 PM
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It is "38 S&W CTG" and not "38 special"

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Old 06-15-2018, 08:52 PM
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Sorry for the lack of pictures. I got 3 uploaded then the site wouldn't let me upload anymore...
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:00 PM
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Any idea on a birthdate for this revolver? What should I have paid for it? It is in good condition.
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:07 PM
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The Victory Model was made in two types, 4" .38 Specials for the US military and defense related contracts and 5" .38 S & Ws for the British and Commonwealth countries.

Chances are high this one started out in 1941 as a 4" .38 S & W, before the type was standardized with a 5" barrel; chances are high the current barrel is a 5", which dates to late 1943. If you see 722589 on the rear cylinder face that part is original to the gun. Hope this is helpful.
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:09 PM
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Yes it is. Thank you Murphydog
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:48 PM
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See if a .38 Special ctg. will fit the chambers. If it won't go all the way in, the gun hasn't been rechambered to .38 Special, which is good, because that's a bad conversion.

Many surplus dealers did rechamber, hoping for more sales, as the .38 S&W cartridge is an older, much less popular caliber.

Your best bet is that it's still in .38 S&W and the barrel change was done by a SA armorer before the gun left South Africa. If so, you're good to go, as long as you don't mind the older, weaker ammunition. Buffalo Bore does make a hot .38 S&W load, but with a 125 grain bullet, so it may not shoot to the sights.

Judging from the wear to the property mark, I think your gun may be refinished. That lowers value.

Most people would probably say you paid about twice what you should have. Maybe $350 for a really nice one. BUT...those who collect British and Commonwealth arms see it differently and will pay more, for its martial background and historical value. If I had the loose money and found a really nice example, I might pay $450. But I am a student of South African history, and there are few such in the USA. In fact, I once helped a spokesmodel for the country when she was left alone in the South African booth at the Texas State Fair. The model was a local girl, a sorority chick from SMU, a prestigious university in Dallas.

She knew zip about South Africa. Two men from the consulate in New Orleans were supposed to be answering the questions, while Sidney was just there to draw male eyes, smile, and hand out literature.

The guys went to lunch, leaving Sid alone in the booth. I answered all the questions for over an hour and the men were so pleased with my interest and help that they gave me a case of Castle lager and a subscription to SA Panorama, a really nice, colorful magazine. And I got Sidney's phone number and dated her for several months.

I also published an article on SA wines in a major newspaper.

But what are your odds of finding a man like me, who might pay well for a South African-issued gun? Pretty low, I'd think.

I based my value estimations on the cold reality of how MOST American gun buyers would see your .38.

Now, if you are in SA or maybe in Namibia, those values would be seen differently. And I don't know the current exchange rate for US dollars vs. South African rands.

We have a SA member named Peter, who can tell you what that gun is worth where he lives. He may see this topic and comment. BTW, he is personally British, although he's lived for decades in South Africa. He seems to like that nationality issue to be clear.

If he arrives here, he's the man you need to see about your gun, if you are in South Africa.
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Old 06-15-2018, 11:08 PM
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I agree with ctg. You have a pre WWII BSR with a Victory barrel.

I did the same thing to one of mine. It is a nickle BSR (not originally nickel) and I bought a Victory barrel, chromed it and put it on the frame.
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Old 06-16-2018, 01:49 AM
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Based on your photos, neither frame nor barrel look like they have been refinished. Both the underbarrel serial and the South African stamp are crisp and show no sign of buffing, and finish texture looks like it is well-worn original.

As has been determined already, the barrel is from a later Victory model, from May/June 1944, and was mounted on a pre-Victory British Service M&P that belonged to one of the South African contracts from early 1941.

What bothers me a bit about the whole thing is the apparent uniformity of finish between frame and barrel as it appears in your last posted picture. That shouldn‘t be. The frame should have shipped in standard pre-war blue, the barrel in the Victory’s sandblast black magic. It may just be the lighting in your photos.
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Old 06-16-2018, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
I once helped a spokesmodel for the country when she was left alone in the South African booth at the Texas State Fair.

She knew zip about South Africa. Two men from the consulate in New Orleans were supposed to be answering the questions, while Sidney was just there to draw male eyes, smile, and hand out literature.

The guys went to lunch, leaving Sid alone in the booth.



. And I got Sidney's phone number and dated her for several months.
The important parts.
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Old 06-16-2018, 08:34 AM
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Got a models phone number and dated her , that kind of stuff never happened to me.
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Old 06-16-2018, 09:00 AM
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass, unIVgiven! If your pictures are too large, the forum software chokes on them. Make sure they are no larger than 1920x1280 pixels and they should upload fine (up to 5 per post).


Quote:
Got a models phone number and dated her , that kind of stuff never happened to me.

Hey, I dated and later married Miss Columbia...Alabama, not the country. Going on 50 years this October. We're getting new overhauls for our anniversary presents.
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Old 06-16-2018, 09:02 AM
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Me either and I have always been willing to help models.

About all I know about South Africa is what I learned from Michener's "The Covenant". Great book.
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Old 06-16-2018, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
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We have a SA member named Peter, who can tell you what that gun is worth where he lives. He may see this topic and comment. BTW, he is personally British, although he's lived for decades in South Africa. He seems to like that nationality issue to be clear.
OK, let us start here; I am English, not British. Born in England from English stock on both sides.

In recent years there has been a deliberate political campaign within Britain to deny the existence of my country, whilst recognising Wales and Scotland.

Now to the revolver. Quite clearly a South African WW II direct purchase (from S&W) from the second order in 1940. It will have had a 4" barrel originally and a full gloss blue finish.

I see in my database that forum member LOBO's gun serial number 720058, UDF number 10324, shipped from the factory on the 1st August 1940. The guns were not shipped in serial number sequence, nor were they numbered by the UDF in that sequence either.

Peter

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Old 06-16-2018, 05:40 PM
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Thank you guys for all of your help and information. So for the good news. The gun shop let me do an exchange minus the DROS fee and the owner got more information on the revolver and I got a different pistol...no harm and more importantly I have no buyers remorse. Thanks again for the help.
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Old 06-17-2018, 12:17 AM
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Thank you guys for all of your help and information. So for the good news. The gun shop let me do an exchange minus the DROS fee and the owner got more information on the revolver and I got a different pistol...no harm and more importantly I have no buyers remorse. Thanks again for the help.
You're welcome, and I like your board name. Clever use of that Roman numeral...

Let us know which gun you choose/chose. If you're just after a sound service type .38, Model 64 is the modern stainless equivalent to what you had, and it'll fire Plus P ammo in reasonable amounts.
Leave those old military guns to collectors, who have the needed specialist knowledge of them. The price of a good used M-64 is no more than you paid, and probably less, especially on police trade-ins.

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Old 06-17-2018, 12:30 AM
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Me either and I have always been willing to help models.

About all I know about South Africa is what I learned from Michener's "The Covenant". Great book.
Haven't read this. Is it about the Church of the Covenant, built after the Battle of Blood River on Dec. 16, 1838?
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Old 06-17-2018, 01:50 AM
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Thanks Texas Star. I'm always on the lookout for a pinned and recessed model 629. Seem to be elusive at a decent price. I will keep my eye out for a m-64 and will definitely check in before I buy.
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Old 06-17-2018, 02:16 AM
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Haven't read this. Is it about the Church of the Covenant, built after the Battle of Blood River on Dec. 16, 1838?
Much wider sweep, typical Michener, huge tome, covers several centuries from the earliest days to the present whenever he wrote it, which I think was before the fall of apartheid. Follows several families over generations. Good read if you like his style.
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Old 06-17-2018, 06:52 AM
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Hey, I dated and later married Miss Columbia...Alabama, not the country. Going on 50 years this October. We're getting new overhauls for our anniversary presents.
That is something 50 years .Alabama seeme a little hot for overals but I have noticed the native folks here seem to be very heat tolerant. I grew up in NC on a tobacco farm and thought I was pretty tuff but I spent a summer cutting trees with some old boys down in S Alabama they gave me a whole new definition of hot.
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Old 06-17-2018, 08:22 AM
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Michener starts out with the original bushmen of the area and progress through the time when the cape was just a uninhabited stop point for those rounding the cape. Then the Dutch setting it up as a supply point for spice island voyages. The actions of the natives and the early settlers, their interactions. The trekkers, Boers, wars with natives and Britain. The beliefs and mis beliefs of all the parties. All told though the histories and actions of fictional people and families through the ages. He does make it to how the people became super classified by race and the rigidity of apartheid. But it also goes into the beginnings of how soccer became a pivot point for the change in race relations. He doesn't actually point to a group and say bad. He points out the beliefs and follies and tragedies of all.

I am sure that things are missed and some will see things from a different vantage point. But, Michener used his grad students do do his research and is usually very historically correct. Interesting man himself. Basically an adopted street kid, who went on to fame, died basically broke having given all his money to the support of worthy students.

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Old 06-17-2018, 09:06 AM
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Everyone is assuming the barrel and frame don't match. What number is on the butt? The serial is found on the barrel (noted) the cylinder (noted) and on the butt. I have not seen the OP state what number is on the butt. I bet it matches the barrel.
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:08 AM
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I just revisited first post. No other marks? No number on butt? That makes the gun illegal. Frame must have serial.
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
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Michener starts out with the original bushmen of the area and progress through the time when the cape was just a uninhabited stop point for those rounding the cape. Then the Dutch setting it up as a supply point for spice island voyages. The actions of the natives and the early settlers, their interactions. The trekkers, Boers, wars with natives and Britain. The beliefs and mis beliefs of all the parties. All told though the histories and actions of fictional people and families through the ages. He does make it to how the people became super classified by race and the rigidity of apartheid. But it also goes into the beginnings of how soccer became a pivot point for the change in race relations. He doesn't actually point to a group and say bad. He points out the beliefs and follies and tragedies of all.

I am sure that things are missed and some will see things from a different vantage point. But, Michener used his grad students do do his research and is usually very historically correct. Interesting man himself. Basically an adopted street kid, who went on to fame, died basically broke having given all his money to the support of worthy students.

Wilbur Smith did a similar series about a family over several generations in South Africa.

Did basically the same about another family in then-Rhodesia.

Smith was born in 1933 in what was then Northern Rhodesia, now Zambia. I think he and his second wife live now in London part of the year and in Cape Town the rest.

BTW, Cape Town was founded in 1652.

If you haven't discovered his books, they're full of adventure and of history.

I'll look for that Michener book.

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Old 06-17-2018, 09:23 AM
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Everyone is assuming the barrel and frame don't match. What number is on the butt? The serial is found on the barrel (noted) the cylinder (noted) and on the butt. I have not seen the OP state what number is on the butt. I bet it matches the barrel.
Said 722589 is on the butt. It is a valid, legal serial number, but does not match the barrel. This is in the first post.

That's basically what this whole topic has been about.

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Old 06-17-2018, 11:27 AM
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Wilbur Smith did a similar series about a family over several generations in South Africa.

Did basically the same about another family in then-Rhodesia.
....
If you haven't discovered his books, they're full of adventure and of history.
.
I think Wilbur Smith is a much better storyteller than Michener. The series on Rhodesia was my favorite. His style is less ponderous and more action-oriented, but the historical accuracy seems just as good. The sex is better, too
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Old 06-17-2018, 12:06 PM
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I've not read Smith, but Michener mixes too much fiction with fact, in all his books, in my opinion.

For an excellent and straight forward history of S. Africa, you would do well to read A History of South Africa by Robert Lacour-Gayet. Originally published in French in 1970, it was translated into English by Stephan Hardman in 1977 and published in the U.S. in 1978.

It is obviously too early to cover the Mandela revolution, but it is among the best historical treatments of S.A. up to the time of its publication. Out of print and not easy to find, but it is worth finding and reading.

Thomas Pakenham's books on the Scramble and the Second Boer War are indispensable histories. His mother, Elizabeth, also wrote a volume on the Jameson raid. She was another superb historian.

Having read 20+ books on S. Africa, those would be among my top recommendations.
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Old 06-18-2018, 12:41 AM
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Wilbur Smith makes some gun and, perhaps, historical, boo-boo's, but is overall very good.

Two of his books that became movies are, "The Train From Katanga" and, "Gold". I think Roger Moore starred in both, and he looked a good deal like Smith. I wondered if they were friends. ? Wait: Rod Taylor was the hero (Capt. Bruce Curry) in the first. Moore was in the other and in, "Shout At the Devil", also starring Lee Marvin. The Katanga Train film went under a couple of names. I think one is, "Africa Ablaze". The heroine was Yvette Mimieux (sp?). Villain was Kenneth More, I think.

Stuart Cloete and Laurens van der Post also wrote good historical material set in South Africa. One of Col. van der Post's books was, "Flamingo Feather", and another, "A Story Like the Wind". The latter has a sequel, the title of which evades me just now. But you'd like both, about an Afrikaner lad, his dog, and a friendly Bushman couple. They have to evade terrorists who kill the boy's family. It was made into a movie, but very watered down, to avoid upsetting audiences steeped in PC values.

As for the Zulu, the basic book is, "The Washing of the Spears", by Donald R. Morris. I relied on it a lot when writing a college paper on that tribe. The professor was impressed and I got an"A" on the paper.

I also published a guest editorial in, "The Dallas Morning News" about the Miss Universe pageant including Miss South Africa, who won that year. (Margaret Gardiner, 1978.) But I can't say more, lest a mod decide that it was political, not historical. Margaret is still a public figure and I was delighted when she and the current Miss Universe, Demi-Leigh Nel-Peters, met and compared notes. It took from 1978 until 2017 to get a second Miss South Africa as Miss Universe. But I think you'd admire Demi-Leigh if you watch some of her YouTube videos. I think she totally deserves her title. She is a very smart, articulate person, as well as being total eye candy. I love her accent.

BTW, Margaret G. is English-speaking and Demi is Afrikaans (Dutch descent). Her roommate in New York is Miss USA, who is black. They all get along. And Demi wants to meet Candice Swanepoel, who is also based in New York. Candice is probably the best known current South African, now that Charlize Theron has US citizenship. May have dual citizenship, though.

South African history has some parallels with that of the USA, including covered wagon treks into a frontier land.
Oh: if you have a gold Krugerrand handy, the man on it is Paul Kruger. Look him up. He had an interesting life. And an RAF ace in WW II was called "Sailor" Malan, because he was formerly in the Merchant Marine. He was a brother or cousin of Prime Minister Daniel Malan. But I won't discuss him here, as it might be deemed political.

And Wilbur Smith was wrong when he had South Africa making .303 rifles in a book. They used those obtained from the UK, etc. The few I've seen actually were made here by Savage/Stevens.

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Old 06-18-2018, 04:29 AM
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Interesting post, Texas Star. Thanks.

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As for the Zulu, the basic book is, "The Washing of the Spears", by Donald R. Morris.
Agreed. Excellent book.

There are lots of books out there on S. Africa. Many are excellent and helpful. There is a lot of junk also.

I recently picked up a fine copy of Sir Graham Bower's Secret History of the Jameson Raid and the South African Crisis, 1895-1902. I bought it from a book shop in Budapest. Good copies are difficult to locate. It is a fascinating insider's look at the period. If there was ever any doubt about Joseph Chamberlain being a scoundrel it is removed by Bower's testimony. Of course, his diary is somewhat self serving, but most of the facts are indisputable.

Other interesting reads:
Briton and Boer, essays by various authors, provides a contemporary account (published in 1900).
Three Years War, by Christiaan de Wet, also contemporary (Scribner's, 1902).
The Great Trek, by Eric Walker (London: Black, 1934).
Africa and the Victorians, by Ronald Robinson, is a classic.
For an iconoclastic 1980s perspective, read The Other End of the Lifeboat, by Otto Scott.

And, of course, various essays and lectures by J.A. Froude are helpful in getting a British but non-jingo perspective. Froude was contemporary and English but sympathetic to the natives and critical of both Boer and British treatment of them. He also wrote a three volume study of the Irish situation, which dovetails nicely with the SA events and was politically intertwined with British policy toward the Cape.

Have you read Wheatcroft's The Randlords?

I guess we'll get dinged for thread drift soon, so I'll quit. Apologies to the OP.
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:35 AM
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Texas Star-OP changed the post. It originally said that number was on the yoke. Now it says butt. My comment was based on the original post.
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:36 AM
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Or maybe I'm just drunk.
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Old 06-18-2018, 10:33 AM
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Or maybe I'm just drunk.

How are you healing? From the surgery?

I'll send up another prayer. I hope you mend well and quickly.
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:24 PM
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Has not been going smoothly. Developed post-op arrhythmia and it's been a pain. New MD was able to explain the situation and offer some hope for a cure. On meds and haven't had an episode in 8 days. But I'm wearing this ridiculous heart monitor for 30 days so the cardiologist can see what's happening. Very inconvenient and tiresome. Then yesterday I tripped over a dog in the kitchen and fell hard. Again injured the bad rotator cuff so had some pain overnight. Is doing a little better today so hoping for quick recovery.

Never ask an old man about his health issues...
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:42 PM
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Has not been going smoothly. Developed post-op arrhythmia and it's been a pain. New MD was able to explain the situation and offer some hope for a cure. On meds and haven't had an episode in 8 days. But I'm wearing this ridiculous heart monitor for 30 days so the cardiologist can see what's happening. Very inconvenient and tiresome. Then yesterday I tripped over a dog in the kitchen and fell hard. Again injured the bad rotator cuff so had some pain overnight. Is doing a little better today so hoping for quick recovery.

Never ask an old man about his health issues...
So sorry. Better luck soon.
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