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06-23-2018, 10:52 AM
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Pre-war 2" M&P w/ Mystery Markings! Update: Letter!
A very nice gentleman gave me this gun, and boy what a gun. I can't wait to get it lettered.
I've been after a true pre-war snub for a while now. I keep coming... close.
The gun on top is a Model of 1902 with a factory 2" barrel on it. Followed by a pre-war shipped/finished post war, then my new one(!), and another pre-war shipped/finished post war with upgraded fixed target sights (still a mystery who did that work)
The finish on these real pre-war guns is just so amazing. I love that this is a good shooter grade gun, I plan on doing some of that with it soon!
A couple glamour shots.
And here are the mystery markings.
At first I thought I saw P O A, but the more I look at it, and look at the orientation of the A (the only really clear marking), I think the 'P' is actually a U that was double stamped on there.
So I think that it says UOA or U something A
Opinions? Can anyone shed some light on the markings? Maybe the letter will clarify when I get it?
If you click on the images you should be able to make them very large if you need.
And for good measure, the frame, and a S/N that I know someone around here is going to want for some crazy database they happen to keep :
Update:
Last edited by Modified; 09-11-2018 at 11:10 AM.
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06-23-2018, 11:01 AM
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I envy you... I recently missed out on a true pre-war RB snubby M&P. Guess I'll have to keep trying. No ideas on your markings.
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06-23-2018, 11:15 AM
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If it is UOA one possibility is a college PD although I think those were pretty scarce before WWII.
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06-23-2018, 11:16 AM
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US Veteran SWCA Member Absent Comrade
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Reminds me of Paint your Wagon movie when the miner told the mormon "its just not right for you to have so many of something we have none of." Very nice and congrats.
Charlie
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06-23-2018, 12:21 PM
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Very nice collection of round butt snubbies. I don’t really have any ideas about the marking on the butt. If I read your serial number right it looks like 525Xxx. If it is ,and I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade, but that number dates the frame to mid 20’s. That would be awfully early for a gun that was authorized in 1933. I realize that S&W did not ship in serial# order, but that’s 7or 8 years earlier than the first snubby. There was a discussion many years ago when Pace40 had the market cornered on these that someone had a very early serial number like yours and it turned out that it didn’t start out as a 2”. If your serial number is 625Xxx than it is very close to mine which shipped on November 27th 1933. I’m sure the factory letter will straighten everything out. They are really cool guns and you have a very nice collection. Here is mine, which I have posted many times. I hope it’s not getting tiresome. Bill
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06-23-2018, 12:29 PM
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The sn starts with a 6
Phone possum... Posting
Last edited by Modified; 06-23-2018 at 12:34 PM.
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06-23-2018, 01:08 PM
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Serial is 626XXX. It's right in line with the pre war snubby 38 M&Ps.
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06-23-2018, 02:00 PM
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Nice snubby!
I think it's: P. C. J.
I think the letters are stamped with the first letter being a 'P'.
It had been hit at lest 3 or 4 times.
If it was a (sideways) U,,the left serif of it is awfully long compared to what we would assume to be the right serif ,,instead I think you are looking at the lower half of the verticle part of the letter 'P' (Block letter style).
A broken stamp or poor strike results in the rest of the mark or lack of it.
Middle letter I think is a poorly struck 'C'.
You can see most of the the letter, from 9 oclock to it's lower end at 5 oclock,,,then a missing part of it is gone. Then again just the tip at 2 oclock barely making a hit is the other end of the C.
That 3rd I think is stylized 'J'.
A long extended hook to the left and a sharp point and pull back forming the lower portion of the letter J.
The vertical part of the letter clearly visable extending upwards off of that.
There are periods betw each letter in the form of very small square open boxes.
Lots of scratches and other dents from handling.
I enlarged the pic greatly to get my opinion. It's the way I'm used to viewing things when I work.
https://i.imgur.com/bJAX41Sh.jpg
I came up with a couple possibilitys like,
Penobscot County Jail (Bangor, Maine)
Passaic County Jail (Passaic, NJ)
The L/E possibilitys just popped up on a simple Google search after I decided what I thought the letters were. I wasn't trying to push the ownership in that direction predisposed.
None of the other ones seemed like they'd have much to do with a 38 revolver!
Anyway, that's what my eyes see.
...Might be all wrong,,that seems to happen a lot lately,,
Last edited by 2152hq; 06-23-2018 at 08:23 PM.
Reason: added enlargement pic / link
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06-23-2018, 04:26 PM
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Holy smoke. As I am at a loss for words, I'll defer to Christoper Walken ... (a well deserved WOW for you) ...
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Last edited by model3sw; 10-02-2018 at 07:47 PM.
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06-23-2018, 04:47 PM
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It just looks like it will be fun to shoot.
A prewar snubbie is certainly on my short list.
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06-23-2018, 05:29 PM
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At first glance I thought U. S. A.
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06-23-2018, 07:20 PM
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As long as we're guessing...I think the last letter is a clear "A" and that there may be a letter between the "U" and the "C" or "G" (not an "O"). My guess is "UFGA" for United Fruit Growers Association. Banana wars anyone?
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06-23-2018, 07:58 PM
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Caleb
Speaking of serial numbers, would you mind sending me the full serial numbers on the other three guns . I already have the serial number of the late-shipped one.
My email is [email protected].
Regards, Mike
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06-23-2018, 09:30 PM
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Here's mine....
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06-23-2018, 10:18 PM
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The more I stare at this the more [partial] letters I see. It's like looking at clouds!
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06-23-2018, 10:23 PM
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And there is always the possibility that they are someone's initials.
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06-23-2018, 10:28 PM
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What I notice is the grips faired much better than the revolvers finishes
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06-24-2018, 07:54 AM
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06-24-2018, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq
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Try this: https://i.imgur.com/bJAX41S.jpg
I'll try to get a bunch more pictures of it here in a second.
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06-24-2018, 09:51 AM
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06-24-2018, 10:09 AM
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Try rubbing a white crayon over the markings.
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06-24-2018, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunStrumpet
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Now I see the last letter as an A in your enlarged picture.
Can't see that in mine.
Duped again!,,Start over time!
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09-10-2018, 09:41 PM
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Any update?
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09-10-2018, 10:44 PM
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Yep!
So, with the new baby, sleep isn't my thing any more.
Looking at this letter though I have two questions:
If this was a loan to a re-seller to put in their salesman's kits, it would have eventually been returned to S&W, right? If so, is there any way to figure out what happened to it after that?
The second thing is in regard to the stocks. The stocks that I have on it were put there by the very kind man who gifted it to me. The letter indicates round butt, but not if they are rubber or wood. Both could have been an option here I think, just wondering which would be right.
Not that it matters *too* much. I have a set of grips in the mail that will render the point moot in my book, just curious.
Last edited by Modified; 09-10-2018 at 10:58 PM.
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09-11-2018, 10:42 AM
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Neat gun.
Being a salesman's sample, it probably shipped with the standard grips- black hard rubber. The vast majority of 2" guns I've had and seen had BHR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunStrumpet
If this was a loan to a re-seller to put in their salesman's kits, it would have eventually been returned to S&W, right? If so, is there any way to figure out what happened to it after that?
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Ask Roy.
Maybe they just kept them for years and sold them to customers in the drought of WW II and paid S&W. You don't need samples when ya got nuthin to sell!
Maybe the salesmen 'liberated' them or bought them for themselves.
Interesting that the invoice says-
Quote:
To replace .38 N.D. 's in Salesman's Kits
which are to be returned to our stock
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That sounds like the Factory had decided that the 2" M&P was to be "THE" Pocket Gun they would promote.
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09-11-2018, 11:05 AM
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Federal Laboratories manufactured and sold tear gas and riot suppression gear, not firearms, so it doesn't make sense that this was a sales sample.
Federal Laboratories - Wikipedia
Perhaps they were issued to their traveling sales people for their protection while on the road.
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09-11-2018, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMFnLA
Federal Laboratories manufactured and sold tear gas and riot suppression gear, not firearms, so it doesn't make sense that this was a sales sample.
Federal Laboratories - Wikipedia
Perhaps they were issued to their traveling sales people for their protection while on the road.
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Wikipedia is not very complete here. Have a look at this old ad, and note the last line:
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09-11-2018, 02:06 PM
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Not to mention SOLE DISTRIBUTORS of the Thompson......
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09-11-2018, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunStrumpet
Wikipedia is not very complete here. Have a look at this old ad, and note the last line:
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Good find!
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09-30-2018, 10:41 AM
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Found some neat stocks for it
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09-30-2018, 06:02 PM
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If it was a salesman's sample might the letters be his initials? Could be any previous owner's initials. Could be any agency's initials. We are talking 80+ years of going through God only knows how many owners. We will probably never know.
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09-30-2018, 06:16 PM
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I wish I had a sales job that warranted an issued S&W snub!
Guess I'll just keep carrying my 442 to appointments
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10-01-2018, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunStrumpet
Wikipedia is not very complete here. Have a look at this old ad, and note the last line:
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I was just doing an inventory at work and we still have two of those 37 mm gas guns that they show at the bottom right of the page! They lock up tight and still shoot just fine though 37 mm is getting harder to find with everyone switching over 40.
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10-02-2018, 08:48 AM
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It looks like Federal Laboratoties Inc. liked to order Colt snub nose revolvers also. I just received my factory letter from Colt on my Colt Detective Special shipped in 1950. Bill
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10-04-2018, 09:27 PM
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If you have Photoshop or some other photo manipulation software, trying playing with the contrast and lightness/darkness settings to see the backstrap's lettering. Sometimes you can pull out more details then are readily apparent in the original photo.
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10-06-2018, 11:35 AM
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Have you tried the ole "side of a pencil lead on paper laid across the grips?
Very neat to see these treasures in the right hands, and not in a tackle box somewhere. Congratulations!
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10-06-2018, 02:58 PM
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Here are enlargements of two of mystery marks. Do not know if this sheds any light on the puzzle. Might the lower mark be the number 4? As in the fourth of ten units?
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10-09-2018, 09:48 AM
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Tried filling it in with a few things but couldn't improve it because of how shallow the markings are. I'll keep trying with different light. I got a little better with a flashlight I think.
Maybe U O A V ?
Edit:
Chalk won't stay in, a crayon is the same. They are just too shallow.
So I put some sharpie on there:
then I started rubbing it off to try to provide some contrast
Last edited by Modified; 10-09-2018 at 12:52 PM.
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10-17-2018, 05:58 PM
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10-17-2018, 06:57 PM
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If the gun won't seat fully in that holster, it may be meant for a Colt Detective Special.
Good photos. Thanks.
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10-17-2018, 11:08 PM
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Good thread Caleb and nice find!
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10-18-2018, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star
If the gun won't seat fully in that holster, it may be meant for a Colt Detective Special.
Good photos. Thanks.
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I think thats what it was made for, but the wear inside seems to be caused by a 2" Military and Police. It seems to have been stretched out enough that a detective special won't stay put in it properly.
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