Transitional Heavy Duty with "Pre-War" stocks?

rgm36 · #1 06-28-2018, 10:51 PM

I have a question...
I acquired a very nice 5" transitional heavy duty from 1946-47
Serial number S63XXX
It had some non original 1950s magnas on it that did not fit flush against the side plate.
When I removed the stocks, I noticed that the side plate screw under the stocks was rounded instead of flat causing the magnas to not fit tight against the side plate.
Because the gun is very nice, I have no reason to believe that anyone would have replaced that screw for any reason - especially with a round headed one. I almost want to believe that the gun came with the non magna pre-war stocks and that is why it had the rounded upper side plate screw.
Question - is this possible? Are there any transitionals reported to have come with prewar stocks?

410bore · #2 06-28-2018, 10:52 PM

Transitionals still had domed rear side plate screws. The transitional magnas had a recess on the back to accommodate

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Hondo44 · #3 06-29-2018, 02:12 AM

Yes it's possible, we see many transitionals with pre war Service stocks, especially the I frames. However it's more likely to be what 410bore posted above; the correct early post war Magna stocks with a dimple are what the gun came with.

Whichever scenario above may be the case for your HD, the ill fitting stocks now on the gun are not original. Simple to prove by verifying that the stamped serial # on the back of the right stock does not match the gun.

rgm36 · #4 06-29-2018, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 410bore

Transitionals still had domed rear side plate screws. The transitional magnas had a recess on the back to accommodate

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So you're saying all early post war "High Horned" magnas had these dimples?

If so, that would explain it.

Does anybody have a set of "Mint" un-numbered high horned
magnas for sale

Hondo44 · #5 06-29-2018, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgm36

So you're saying all early post war "High Horned" magnas had these dimples?

If so, that would explain it.

Does anybody have a set of "Mint" un-numbered high horned
magnas for sale

No, all sharp shoulder Magnas are not dimpled. All we can say is that the dimpled Magnas generally correspond to when Sharp Shouldered Magnas were used, but the flat head screw was introduced before the end of the transition from sharp shouldered Magnas to standard Magnas.

It's not likely you'll find any un-numbered Magnas; not impossible but a long shot. Check the classied section of this forum or place a want ad there.

Just FYI, the early Magnas are sharp "shouldered", the horns are no higher than normal. High horned Magnas refer to Bodygaurd and Centennial J frame Magnas.

High horns shown on the Centennial and medium high horns shown on the Bodyguard:

rgm36 · #6 06-29-2018, 09:31 PM

Yup - I meant "sharp shouldered", but had a momentary brain lapse. That is most likely what it came with.

Does anyone have a photo of a transitional N frame with original numbered pre-war grips?

That must be very scarce!

daddio202 · #7 06-29-2018, 11:07 PM

I never noticed the dimple in my post war transitional K-frame with pre war magnas before. I was reading this thread and scrolled back to pictures of when I first got it amd was cleaning it for first time. Figured I would post the picture that shows it perfectly inside right grip. I wish it was an N frame transitional though! You can see the dimple at the top of horn in 2nd pic amd the matching serial stamped in it too. Just trying to help illustrate this new to me idea.

Hondo44 · #8 06-29-2018, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgm36

That must be very scarce!

What's very scarce?

Wiregrassguy · #9 06-30-2018, 08:07 AM

Quote:

I never noticed the dimple in my post war transitional K-frame with pre war magnas before.

Those grips are very interesting to me. They have the pre-war medallions and washers but the post war rounded bordering around the checkering. That makes them truly transitional to me. I've only seen sharp bordered magnas with the pre-war medallions/washers.

rgm36 · #10 06-30-2018, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

What's very scarce?

The type of stocks that I originally meant when I started this was - pre-war non magna (with no horn) style grips on a transitional N frame - from the factory

Has anyone seen this?

smith17 · #11 06-30-2018, 04:05 PM

Several years ago I asked all here if anyone had ever seen original pre-war magnas or pre-war service stocks on any transitional N frame. No one had.
Ed

Hondo44 · #12 06-30-2018, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daddio202

I never noticed the dimple in my post war transitional K-frame with pre war magnas before. I was reading this thread and scrolled back to pictures of when I first got it amd was cleaning it for first time. Figured I would post the picture that shows it perfectly inside right grip. I wish it was an N frame transitional though! You can see the dimple at the top of horn in 2nd pic amd the matching serial stamped in it too. Just trying to help illustrate this new to me idea.

The grips themselves have the post war rounded corner checkering border. The medallions do look like the pre war flat silvers.

Are the medallions flat faced or curved face to be flush with the wood?

daddio202 · #13 06-30-2018, 08:35 PM

They look flush to me. The whole gun is great!! 99 percent to me.

SDH · #14 06-30-2018, 09:04 PM

Very interesting grips for sure~~~
Those are definately pre-war washers on the back and pre-war medallions on the front. With the S prefix~~it's a pre-pre-pre~~
I invented/coined a new collector's term~~

Pre-Pre-Pre Transitional K, pretty hi-horn, very sharp shoulder, rounded groove checkered, flat-faced medallion, blued silver washer, walnut magna grips.
You heard it here first!!!!

Joking aside, it is a very interesting revolver daddio!

Hondo44 · #15 07-01-2018, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgm36

The type of stocks that I originally meant when I started this was - pre-war non magna (with no horn) style grips on a transitional N frame - from the factory
Has anyone seen this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by smith17

Several years ago I asked all here if anyone had ever seen original pre-war magnas or pre-war service stocks on any transitional N frame. No one had.
Ed

Frankly, I'm not sure, many times we don't get to confirm that something we see is original to the gun. And I don't have photos of any N frames.

Service grips on Transitional I frames is very common. Not as much on K frames.

Hondo44 · #16 07-01-2018, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daddio202

They look flush to me. The whole gun is great!! 99 percent to me.

Great photos, they're clearly flat silvers with post war checkering borders on the grips. Most likely to be found on K frames since their production was never halted during the war and therefore there are no "Transitional" K frames per se.

Wiregrassguy · #17 07-01-2018, 06:52 AM

daddio, I think the value of your transitional revolver package just substantially increased. Those stocks are likely more valuable than cokes if these guys haven't seen anything like them before. Make sure that JP@AK documents them in his database.

410bore · #18 07-01-2018, 07:36 AM

The grips on daddios Revolver have been encountered MANY times. The first post war magnas were what you see on his gun. They are essentially pre war magnas only with BLUED machined washers on the back. I've had a few SV prefix guns with them over the years. Nothing new but they are an interesting grip

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Wiregrassguy · #19 07-01-2018, 08:12 AM

Transitional Heavy Duty with "Pre-War" stocks?-20170918_151156-jpg

Kris,
Those look like machined washers to me. What am I missing?

smith17 · #20 07-01-2018, 09:10 AM

In case this starts a significant thread departure, which it appears to have done, it might be helpful from a future search standpoint to have the latter part of this thread as its own standalone.
Just a suggestion.
Ed

daddio202 · #21 07-01-2018, 09:19 AM

I apologize to rgm36! I did not mean ro hijack the the thread. I was going to start an entire new thread last night but thought all the talk about my grips was done. Sorry

RKmesa · #22 07-01-2018, 10:27 AM

Just a reminder to all, on the Transitional N Frames, one of the defining features is that they were assembled on the pre war grip frame, which is slightly longer than the later post war Grip Frame. Pre war N Frame magna and service stocks fit the 1940s post war Transitional N Frames. So the early 1950s high shoulder magnas are just a bit short on all of the Transitional N Frames.

Also, even before the War, in 1938 or 39ish S&W had begun shipping their N-Frames with magnas as the default.

Most Transitional N Frames shipped with the longer Transitional magnas, with the rounded corner checkering. So... I think it would be rare, but because it is S&W, not impossible, for a Transitional to ship with pre war service stocks. I don’t recall ever seeing one in life or in photos and I usually pay close attention to any post related to Transitional N Frames.

410bore · #23 07-01-2018, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy

Kris,
Those look like machined washers to me. What am I missing?

They are machined as I stated above. But they are also BLUED. This was never done pre war

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Wiregrassguy · #24 07-01-2018, 11:30 AM

Ah. They are shown in the SCSW4th. I didn't remember seeing them there and I've never seen a set before now. At least, I don't recall seeing any. They were only used into 1946.

SDH · #25 07-01-2018, 12:10 PM

Hondo says they are SILVER!
also " there are no "Transitional" K frames"

Wiregrassguy · #26 07-01-2018, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Transitional models: See discussion of Transitional Model concept in general at the beginning of the .38 N frame section. A similar transition process can be observed in postwar .38 M&P’s, beginning with the first S prefix commercial gun w/ the new hammer block at about S-769000 on 12/27/1944. The same source offers two conflicting dates on the introduction of the short action, noting the first “K38” short action and new hammer at s/n S924878, 10/21/47; but also noting the “1st M&P” short action as s/n S990184 on 11/13/1950. There is probably a premium for such transitional models.

(SCSW, 4th Ed., Page 169).

I'll let Jim argue terminology with Supica and Nahas.

Those washers in daddio's picture are blue as Kris says. An example is pictured in the SCSW.

Hondo44 · #27 07-01-2018, 05:13 PM

It's not really Supica and Nahas, they just reflect the collector jargon.

Of course the 38 K frame M&P was in transition after the war albeit the SCSW doesn't have a 38 Transitional section because of their continuous production thru the war. And when you think about it, all models are in a constant state of transition, changes happened all the time and still do.

The Post War Transitional Models with a capital T are meant to distinguish the changes of models discontinued at the beginning of the war from when they were re-introduced after the war, until all the post war design changes were incorporated and they became Models of 1950 or 1953, etc.
They weren't the same; a pre war 44 HE Military wasn't the same as the 44 Post war Transitional, and were't yet the Model of 1950 44 Military for example. So something to call them was needed for collectors. The factory didn't even acknowledge the change and there were no dash numbers in those days.

A better name IMHO would have been the Post war Re-introduction Models. That would distinguish them and properly exclude the 38 M&P which was not re-introduced.

SDH · #28 07-01-2018, 05:48 PM

Now we are Capitalizing "Transitional"? No transitional K frames, not capitalized?
Newly made up terminology appearing daily

too many experts around here~~~~.

LLOYD17 · #29 07-01-2018, 06:28 PM

How about non-sharp shouldered post war magnas fit to a pre war N Frame? Of course these we made for the 1926 when it went back for a refinish in 1965.

Another curiosity is the K Frame pre war magnas showing up for a brief time on post war guns while I haven’t seen any N Frames get that treatment.

Hondo44 · #30 07-01-2018, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LLOYD17

How about non-sharp shouldered post war magnas fit to a pre war N Frame? Of course these we made for the 1926 when it went back for a refinish in 1965.

Another curiosity is the K Frame pre war magnas showing up for a brief time on post war guns while I haven’t seen any N Frames get that treatment.

It's all about the volume of each model produced. Far fewer N frames were made, so far less old inventory of parts to use up.

Hondo44 · #31 07-01-2018, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDH

Now we are Capitalizing "Transitional"? No transitional K frames, not capitalized?
Newly made up terminology appearing daily

too many experts around here~~~~.

I posted "there are no "Transitional" K frames per se." There are plenty of transitional K frames. The difference is a specific term vs. the generic meaning of transitional.

Nothing new, same as it's always been, try and keep up. You might have to resort to reading the books. You can become your own expert and we won't have to explain it.

paplinker · #32 07-01-2018, 08:24 PM

Well this thread has been turning out pretty interesting as its been evolving. Finding examples of using up prewar parts are not too hard to find.

Went through my grip stash for a couple minutes and thought i would share this pair.

Its a post war K frame grip with prewar blue dished washers on the back.
Shame someone went through the trouble of removing the serial number.

I have two N frame trans pairs
This one numbered with the screw indent at the top

Next set without a number,also with the indent. This set is a little challenged but fits a trans N frame nicely.

Hondo44 · #33 07-01-2018, 11:30 PM

Rich,

Two nice examples of sharp shoulder stocks. The dished washers always have the pre flat silvers (chrome over brass) because they have the short stem.

The post war curved nickel over brass all have the long stem to use with the newer washers.