22/32 HFT Conundrum

Duke44 · #1 07-06-2018, 06:28 PM

I am posting this at the request of my uncle, who owns the gun. He acquired this little gem a while back and has been wanting to find out more information on it. There are some features that don't seem to match up between the SCSW and the actual gun. He asked that I post it and see what the community thinks as far as productions changes and age of this gun. We are both still learning and welcome your input.

Please bear with me, I'm not sure of the best way to lay this out.

Serial number is 360375 so we were estimating 1922 but after looking at the feature changes we're confused.

SCSW-Page 132-133

Production Changes
ca. 1914: Logo moved to right side and made larger
This gun has the small logo on the left
ca. mid-1919: 2 screw stocks replaced with single screw stocks
Check, single screw stocks
May, 1922: Stamped "Made in USA"
Not stamped
August 1923: Return to 2 screw stocks. Front sight changed from Paine to Patridge, and rear sight notch changed from U to square.
Has single screw stocks, rear sight is U notch and front sight doesn't look like a Patridge, not an expert there.

Any input?

A letter is pending so that will hopefully bring some clarity.

Duke44 · #2 07-06-2018, 06:29 PM

More pics.

Duke44 · #3 07-06-2018, 06:32 PM

Still more pics.

Duke44 · #4 07-06-2018, 06:33 PM

Last ones.

Muley Gil · #5 07-06-2018, 07:36 PM

That's one of the nicest .22/32s I've seen. I THINK that is a Paine bead sight.

glowe · #6 07-06-2018, 07:52 PM

Very nice 22/32 HFT. Interesting enough that I have serial number 360573 that shipped in February 1923. Let us know what the ship date turns out to be from the letter? Most of your observations are quite accurate, but the changeover of stock designs in the early 1900s pretty much fell on the new decade. The gold medallion stocks were introduced in 1910 and the convex stocks were 1920 and finally the silver medallion stocks came about 1930. Exceptions, sure but most likely you will find these pretty accurate.

My 22/32 HFT does not have the MADE IN USA stamp either. Probably made in 1922. The stamping was ordered in May 1922, but it is unknown exactly when the first example was manufactured.

Forgot to add that the introduction of the small logo on the left side was 1919 and they ran in that location until around 1936.

Duke44 · #7 07-07-2018, 02:10 PM

Okay, so the main hang up was the small logo on the left. If they began in 1919 then an early 1920's date is most likely on this gun. What does the SCSW reference when is says the logo moved to the right side and made larger in 1914?

glowe · #8 07-07-2018, 06:26 PM

Logos started on hand ejectors with the introduction of the Model 1896
Large logo on right side prior to 1916 - 1917
No-Logo" guns, all models 1917 to 1919
Small logo on left side started 1919 - 1936
Large logo was moved to the right side 1937 – 1938

Model52guy · #9 07-07-2018, 06:34 PM

Very nice example of a HFT. Beautiful gun!

Hondo44 · #10 07-07-2018, 10:07 PM

The only unusual thing is the front sight.

It's neither the early style pain bead with silver bead or the Patridge sight used after ~ 1923.

rct269 · #11 07-07-2018, 10:43 PM

The front sight is a Paine "Black bead". It was standard on top breaks from 1878 to 1905--also standard on HE's from 1896 to 1905---and available on order to 1942. (Per Bob Neal)

Ralph Tremaine

Hondo44 · #12 07-07-2018, 11:20 PM

S&W must have been out of inventory of the Paine silver bead; used whatever they had to ship guns out the door.

rct269 · #13 07-08-2018, 12:13 AM

The Paine Silver bead is described as "Optional modified Paine sight (the black bead) with silver bead on the rear." It was "available" on break tops from 1905 to the 1920's---and "available" on HE's from 1905 to "at least the 1920's and possibly later."

As for me, I've never seen one. Yet another I've never seen is the Paine square bead---same configuration as the other two, but with a square bead------also available------- "on order".

Ralph Tremaine

Hondo44 · #14 07-08-2018, 01:53 AM

I believe the silver bead was standard on the 22/32 Heavy Frame Target however.

rct269 · #15 07-08-2018, 11:57 AM

That's entirely possible----and Neal missed it. I've never even seen a photo of one I could identify as such.

But I'm making progress! I saw a recognizable photo of a real honest to God McGivern bead within just the last few days----first ever-----right here!!

Ralph Tremaine

JP@AK · #16 07-08-2018, 12:45 PM

So, this raises an interesting question (interesting to me, at least).

My .22/32 HFT has a Sheard 35-A front sight. The bead is half-round and copper color. The rear blade is U shaped. How different is this from the Paine? Also, how common is this sight arrangement on the HFT?

The serial number on this gun is 423630. I incorrectly identified it previously as 425650, so I may have the wrong ship date for it. Ralph, you should correct your database on this one. I'll let you know when I get correct shipment info from Roy.

JP@AK · #17 07-08-2018, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP@AK

How different is this from the Paine?

Never mind this part. I just got smarter and compared the OP's picture of a Paine with my Sheard. The difference in the blade is obvious.

Help with the other parts of my question would still be appreciated.

Hondo44 · #18 07-08-2018, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP@AK

So, this raises an interesting question (interesting to me, at least).

My .22/32 HFT has a Sheard 35-A front sight. The bead is half-round and copper color. The rear blade is U shaped. How different is this from the Paine? Also, how common is this sight arrangement on the HFT?

The Sheards are seen occasionally.

The Paine is most commonly seen from the 1st Bekeart until the Aug. 29, 1923 change order, replaced the original Paine bead* front sight w/U-Notch to a Patridge w/square notch rear.

* is a style designed by "Chevalier" Ira Paine, a renowned pistol shooter of the 1880s era.

Once the Patridge front sight became standard, there seem to be very few exceptions other than owner replacements.

rct269 · #19 07-08-2018, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP@AK

So, this raises an interesting question (interesting to me, at least).

My .22/32 HFT has a Sheard 35-A front sight. The bead is half-round and copper color. The rear blade is U shaped. How different is this from the Paine? Also, how common is this sight arrangement on the HFT?

The serial number on this gun is 423630. I incorrectly identified it previously as 425650, so I may have the wrong ship date for it. Ralph, you should correct your database on this one. I'll let you know when I get correct shipment info from Roy.

I have no data base on these (or any other for that matter). I believe James Redfield does ("JSR III")--and if he doesn't have one written down, he for sure has one he carries around in his head.

Ralph Tremaine

JP@AK · #20 07-08-2018, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rct269

I have no data base on these (or any other for that matter). I believe James Redfield does ("JSR III")

Yes. Sorry Ralph. I was, indeed, thinking of James. I'll contact him when I get the correct ship date for my HFT.

Thank you!

glowe · #21 07-08-2018, 08:25 PM

I thought that David Wilson was keeping track of the HFTs??

rct269 · #22 07-08-2018, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

I thought that David Wilson was keeping track of the HFTs??

He may be, but perhaps better known for his efforts with the .32 Regulation Police Target-----which at least looks pretty much the same.

Ralph Tremaine