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Old 07-08-2018, 11:15 PM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
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Default Model of 1905 Target with ID!

Just lucked into this Target Model . 38 Special with a Chicago Police history. When it gets here, it'll get a letter for sure.

I'm guessing circa 1910? I wonder what was done when it went back to the factory.......
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Old 07-08-2018, 11:42 PM
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150040 shipped on 3/15/10 and it was also a target model. No way to know why it was returned to the factory. Could have been most anything.
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:46 AM
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Nice find!

From the wear on the grips, it was most likely at least refinished. Once you get it, we'll find clues under the left grip.
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:53 AM
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Another relatively close target model with 6 1/2" barrel is serialized 1108xx. It left the factory in April, 1908.
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Old 07-09-2018, 09:28 AM
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If the stocks are original to the gun it helps narrow down the age even without the databases available. The gold medallion stocks were used from 1910 to 1920. As for serial number ranges, most of the range from 148XXX to 153XXX were shipped in 1910. Only drawback is the name inscribed on the sideplate. Value is negatively affected unless the name can be associated with a well known shooter. I think I can read Lieut. W. H. Reed Police, but cannot make out what is inscribed over the logo?

There are indications of what was done by the type of stamps the factory used. When you get the gun take special care to look for letter and number stamps on the butt-frame behind the stocks and under the barrel on the flat and on the rear of the cylinder. I have not been keeping track of several member's comments on what diamonds, RB, etc. can tell a person about the repair?? Also, The Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation offers a service to look up records on revolvers and may have a repair invoice or documents relating to your new acquisition.
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Old 07-09-2018, 09:55 AM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
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The missing word over the logo is "Chicago". This type of inscription was traditional at that agency. I'll post with more info as soon it arrives.
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
150040 shipped on 3/15/10 and it was also a target model. No way to know why it was returned to the factory. Could have been most anything.
And just to mess with your mind, #116420 (also target) was shipped three months later than DWalt's mention-----June 20, 1910. That makes a lot of sense.

You'll find out when it shipped when you get your letter---all this what shipped when business is just fun for our feeble minds.

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Old 07-09-2018, 10:40 AM
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Ralph, have to ask what type of stocks it had? One can only estimate ship dates, but I think that most of the 38 M&Ps were shipped quickly from the teens up to the stock market crash of 1929. There are always exceptions and maybe target revolvers set in inventory for some time because demand was lower than standard guns? Do you suppose the factory could have had blanks in their records they filled once and awhile, resulting in a misfit serial number?

There are a couple of differing opinions out there on when stocks were installed on revolvers, which one is correct?
one - guns were completed and fitted with stocks when manufactured?
two - guns were inventoried without stocks until pulled to ship?
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:45 AM
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116420 has non-medallion stocks, flat/concave tops, numbered to the gun.

I think they responded to the lower demand for target guns by building fewer target guns-----not by overbuilding, and letting them sit in inventory. That said, I wasn't there. If I was there---and ensconced in the corner office, and found out we were overbuilding, there would be some scuffed britches when some butts bounced off the pavement out in front of the door.(!!!)

I don't understand the "blanks in their records" question.

Which opinion on when stocks were installed is correct? Good question!! The opinion I hold goes like this: Shortly after the frame was numbered, the stocks were FIT to the frame, numbered, and shipped off to be finished. The frame went on down another road to have stuff done to it----and to have other bits and pieces fit to it----and to be finished----and to be done. Then it showed up with no stocks on it at a nice little old lady's bench. It showed up along with a bunch of others---and they're all sitting barrels down on pegs, with the butts facing the nice little old lady (so she can see the serial numbers)----and it wouldn't surprise me to learn they were in serial number order. (I have a photograph of this bench, the nice little old lady, and a bunch of guns sitting on pegs.) Okay, somewhere out of the picture I figure there's a box of stocks---all finished and ready to be stuck on THEIR frame. I don't know if the stocks in the box are in serial number order or not, but I'm thinkin' it sure would be nice if they were. And if they weren't, and I was still in that corner office, there'd be some more scuffed britches from the pavement out in front of the door. Anyhow, nice little old lady gets stocks and frames together, grabs a box, numbers it, wraps the gun, stuffs the gun into the box, and pitches it onto a cart to go to the vault. Now---is that correct? Another good question!!!

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Old 07-09-2018, 12:10 PM
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My Target is SN 150040 and it lettered to 1910. Also has the 6 and 1/2 inch barrel. A very hard gun to find for sale these days.
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:18 PM
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Common errors inputting data, loss of frame, trashed defective revolver found in final inspection, etc. might be reasons there are blanks in the logs?? I agree with the stocks needing to be fitted before the gun is blued or plated, since both wood and metal are shaped when fitting stocks. After 1983, when no more hand fitting was done, the issue went away.

Always liked the image that is on the front of Roy's Images of America Smith & Wesson. Clearly shows guns with stocks around the beginning of WWII.
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
Common errors inputting data, loss of frame, trashed defective revolver found in final inspection, etc. might be reasons there are blanks in the logs?? I agree with the stocks needing to be fitted before the gun is blued or plated, since both wood and metal are shaped when fitting stocks. After 1983, when no more hand fitting was done, the issue went away.

Always liked the image that is on the front of Roy's Images of America Smith & Wesson. Clearly shows guns with stocks around the beginning of WWII.
Actually, according to the caption, it shows Victory Model guns with stocks. I can see where Victory Models might have stocks attached at an entirely different point in the assembly process than would be the case with commercial production. Now that I think about the only Victory Model I ever examined, I can see where more than a few steps/operations may have been either combined or omitted altogether----more likely omitted altogether---compared to commercial production.

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Old 07-09-2018, 02:57 PM
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Mine is not a target gun but 154720 was shipped Jul 18th 1910. A letter from Roy had it shipped to a Philadelphia gun dealer. It has the original diamond checkered stocks which are in good condition. The nickel finish has some rash on the left side plate. The barrel is 5 & 3/4" from front of cylinder to muzzle. She is a pleasure to shoot. Hope the identification data helps.
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Old 07-09-2018, 04:54 PM
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I have issues with the ID of those revolvers. First, K frames with silver medallion stocks suggests 1930s. Second, I can swear those are 6 1/2" guns and doubt that many were issued with the Victory model which had 2" & 4" barrels. Lastly, the caption states 1944 as the date of the picture, which should have all been smooth walnut by then. If they were commercial guns, I would think that they would have had Magnas?

154,720 should not be a 5 3/4" barrel if it is original?? S&W K frames from that era were made in 4", 5", 6", and 6 1/2. Was the gun a special order?? I see you must have gotten a factory letter, did the letter state 5 3/4" barrel length?
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Old 07-09-2018, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
Common errors inputting data, loss of frame, trashed defective revolver found in final inspection, etc. might be reasons there are blanks in the logs?? I agree with the stocks needing to be fitted before the gun is blued or plated, since both wood and metal are shaped when fitting stocks. After 1983, when no more hand fitting was done, the issue went away.

Always liked the image that is on the front of Roy's Images of America Smith & Wesson. Clearly shows guns with stocks around the beginning of WWII.
I questioned the top image in this photo when I first saw it.

Taking a closer look at that image on the cover of "Images of America, Smith & Wesson" I'm pretty sure those are post-war K-22's, not Victory models.

Magna grips, fishhook hammer, and 6 inch barrels. Look at the wood dowels the guns are positioned on - it appears that the dowels are staggered, one for 22, the next for 38, then 22, etc.


BTW, not to derail the thread - .38 Special M&P (not target model) #141709 shipped in December, 1909.
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:10 PM
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Thanks for the correction Gary. The letter from Roy Jinks states my 1905, serial 154720, was indeed shipped with a 6" barrel; not the 5 & 3/4" I reported above; so my error. I need to calibrate my fishing ruler.
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
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I questioned the top image in this photo when I first saw it.

Taking a closer look at that image on the cover of "Images of America, Smith & Wesson" I'm pretty sure those are post-war K-22's, not Victory models . . .
I always concentrated on the non-rib revolvers in the front left side of the picture, but now I think I see ribs and target sights on the rest of them. If so, early post-war is the only right answer.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:31 AM
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Well done, sir. I saw that gun and bid on it but wasn’t around at the end of the auction. Very well bought, too! Must be lettered.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:19 AM
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Have to love the historical guns, shame about the non-factory re-blue.

The dishing around the S/N on the butt is a dead giveaway that someone else did it, also if I see right the hammer/trigger are polished?

I may have missed it, coffee not being in brain yet goobers my reading comprehension, but have you taken off the stocks to check for a stamp on the frame? Something like X.XX?

The S&W Historical Foundation has records over a particular period (I'm not sure what is digitized yet), and there is a possibility of finding records regarding what the service department did to the gun if it happened over the period they have recorded.

I just got a lovely package of information on a modified police gun of mine. Also it's an example of S&W factory re-bluing. I think you will see the difference between your cool gun and this one:

Half Target M&P, Update: Another Police Gun!

I cannot stress how incredibly cool the Historical Foundation is, everyone should be a member and support what they do.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:08 PM
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The rework date is December 1926.
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Old 07-14-2018, 02:10 AM
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Wow, it went back early. Unfortunately it was within 10 years following the end of WW I. Smith was still in their satin finish period like after WW II in the late 40's, early 50's. Originally the gun had a bright blue finish.
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Old 07-15-2018, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
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The rework date is December 1926.
Well heck yeah, if you aren't a member yet you should join the SWHF, then letter the gun, and see if they can find anything fun!
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