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07-16-2018, 07:59 AM
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What Commonwealth countries were BSR's shipped to?
So far I've acquire BSR's from England, Canada and Australia and am looking for examples from New Zealand and South Africa. Were they shipped to any other countries?
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07-16-2018, 08:42 AM
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This may be a bit off topic, but when I was on an international police mission to Kosovo in 2002-2004, the Fiji Island police officers were armed with 5" .38 S&W BSRs.
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07-16-2018, 11:03 AM
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In terms of BSR’s positively identifiable as such, the only country missing on your list as far as I know is India. The British Indian Army was a separate entity within the Commonwealth not unlike Australian and Canadian forces, although India’s political status was considerably less autonomous. Whether Indian and Pakistani BSR’s, recognizable by either the RFI marks from Ishapore (India) or the black stove paint and white number on sideplate (Pakistan) were shipped to India directly or via Britain is as impossible to tell as with all Lend-lease marked guns. Direct shipment can only be confirmed on pre-Lend-lease contracts, like Canada and South Africa.
I’m pretty sure Hartford Ordnance Depot did not pack a separate box of revolvers for Fiji
And then there are the post-war German police BSR’s. But that’s a secondary use.
PS: And if you want the rarest of BSR’s, look for one with an S-prefix serial number in the 800-thousands marked K.N.I.L. on the backstrap. Those are “post-Victory” BSR’s produced for the Dutch East Indies police in 1947. Our late member Cyrano had one, and Roy found the documentation on these. I don’t remember how large the batch was.
Last edited by Absalom; 07-16-2018 at 11:16 AM.
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07-16-2018, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefdave
. . . Were they shipped to any other countries?
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Do you mean where did S&W directly ship BSRs or where did they end up?
Jinks book states that direct shipments from the factory went to Union of South Africa in addition to those you mention, but does not show direct shipments to New Zealand.
The British Colonies in WWII were Aden (Saudi Arabia), The Bahamas, Lesotho Basutoland, Bermuda, British Guiana British Guiana, British Honduras British Honduras, Burma, Cayman Islands, Ceylon, Cyprus, Falkland Islands, Gambia Colony, Gibraltar, Gold Coast, Hong Kong, Jamaica, Kenya, British North Borneo, Malacca, Malta, Mauritius, New Zealand, Nigeria, Southern Rhodesia, and Singapore. All or some of these colonies could have received BSRs directly from the Brits during the war.
Dominions were Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Newfoundland, South Africa, the Irish Free State, India, Pakistan, and Ceylon.
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Last edited by glowe; 07-16-2018 at 11:45 AM.
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07-16-2018, 03:34 PM
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Documents I found in the South African military archives show that Lend Lease stores for the British Commonwealth, with the exception of Canada, were controlled by the London Munitions Assignment Board. Countries would submit their requirements and quantities to the regular Board meetings and available stores and quantities thereof would be allocated based on perceived priorites at the time. It is clear that the available stores were to hand and were not then ordered from the US.
Distribution of revolvers was from Weedon ordnance depot in England. In September 1942 South Africa queried the numbers and makes of .38 revolvers issued by Weedon to SA since 1 May 1942, together with a request that only S&W be supplied in future. The answer was: 482 Enfield No 2 Mk I and I*; 260 Webley Mk IV; 1940 S&W.
Peter
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07-16-2018, 03:51 PM
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S&W Trivia - I have an early factory letter on a Victory Model that in the history of the Victory Models part of the letter's preamble it states that 8,000 Victory models were supplied to Austria, by S&W. This, of course, was a typo error, meant to say "Australia," and Roy sent me a corrected letter. Later, we both commented that after WW2 this error turned out to be correct as many Victory Models were furnished the various Austrian Police Agencies by the Allied Forces. Ed.
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07-16-2018, 06:07 PM
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The early 1941 Australian contract purchase was pre-lend-lease, but was done through the British Purchasing Commission. I assumed they were shipped directly Down Under. Anyone know if that was the case?
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07-16-2018, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordonrick
The early 1941 Australian contract purchase was pre-lend-lease, but was done through the British Purchasing Commission. I assumed they were shipped directly Down Under. Anyone know if that was the case?
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I'm pretty sure a member here has one lettered. It should be clear from the wording whether they shipped to the usual "BPC in NYC" destination or say something different, like the South African contract guns (which of course were not BPC, but their own contract). A lettered gun could be used to query the SWHF for a possible shipping document.
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07-16-2018, 07:34 PM
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Looking again at Roy's information in the book, he documented 8000 shipped from the factory to Australia.
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07-16-2018, 08:11 PM
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D'oh! Never trust your memory. I pulled my letter for 760659 (one of the 8000) and reread it. Sure enough, it does say "...shipped from our factory on May 7, 1941 and delivered to the British Purchasing Commission, New York City, NY for delivery to Australia." So the BPC, not S&W, apparently shipped them on from NY to Oz for that contract. Thanks!
Edit:
Per Roy's letter
6/1940 - 12/1940: 112,854 sold directly to the BPC
2/1940 - 6/1941: 21,347 sold to Union of South Africa
6/1940 - 12/1941: 45,328 sold to Canada
4/1941: 8,000 sold to Australia
1941 - end of war: Remaining 384,100 of the 571,629 total commonwealth guns were Lend Lease
Last edited by gordonrick; 07-16-2018 at 08:21 PM.
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07-16-2018, 08:36 PM
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Dang. Now this has me wondering. The letter actually says, "...38/200 British Service Model, British Purchasing Commission Contract" So would this mean it was sold to the BPC and ended up going to Australia in addition to the 8,000, or was part of the Aussie contract? I just assumed the latter. I would think sold in April, shipped in May would make sense at the rate they were turning them out. I am probably overthinking this. Ugh.
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07-16-2018, 09:03 PM
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I have 767114, which shipped to the BPC in New York on May 12, just five days after yours, in a shipment of 1000. It went to England, was stamped at Enfield, and still ended up in Australian service at some later point, as it has been Lithgow-FTR’d.
I think the BPC got a lot of revolvers at that time. Which 8000 made it to Australia directly is a different question. As Peter can tell you, not all SA contract guns that letter as delivered to Cape Town actually were delivered there.
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