Received my letter on the Triple lock I purchased a few weeks ago. Most of the info is just basic history of this type revolver.
Ship date August 25, 1915 was a little later than I was expecting considering the Ser#. Shipped to became interesting after I did a little research. Some of you may have seen my earlier threads on this Triple lock and recall it has a import stamp by "Odin Alex VA" which imported firearms primarily from Mexico. The Triple Lock was shipped to Shelton-Payne Arms Co in El Paso TX, this Company has a truly shady past and were selling legally to US costumers and Illegally to Poncho Villa's revolutionary's. So it is entirely possible that the Triple lock had been in Mexico most of its life. I have a feeling if this gun could talk I'd need a translator.
Some info that I found on the Seller:
The Shelton Payne arms Co. was a weapons company that operated during the Mexican revolution. It legally and illegally sold guns and ammunition to both sides. Its employees would have to direct their customers attention away from other shoppers so that an American wouldn't turn around to find a Mexican shopping there and spoil their secret.
When Poncho Villa attacked New Mexico, the company was allowed to sell its goods to all of Villas enemies. At the same time the company illegally sold to Villa and his allies.
A few photos of the revolver, letter and the Shelton-Payne building.
P.S. you'll have to click on the letter to view it.
Its nice to be able to trace the previous history of these guns and try to fill in the blanks. Are those the grips that came with it? Nice gun.
Walt
It would be even nicer if I could find the company sale records if they exist which is doubtful being they were selling illegally.
The value of the triple lock would go up considerable if it had been sold to Poncho Villa.
The stocks that came on the revolver were those ugly fake stag Franzite type. The ones on it now are a set I got from Ken Driskill.
It would be even nicer if I could find the company sale records if they exist which is doubtful being they were selling illegally.
The value of the triple lock would go up considerable if it had been sold to Poncho Villa.
....
You should look up some of the old threads we’ve had here on Pancho Villa’s guns.
They’ve become such a joke that I’m afraid nobody would believe you if you did come up with a document showing your gun to have been sold to him
PS: That said, people have claimed to recognize a TL in the gun he is holding in this picture.
All I can say for certain is it's the right time frame and it came from a seller where Poncho Villa may have frequented, more than that is anybody's guess.
You are extremely fortunate to know where and when the gun was originally shipped, and approximately where it was and certain who had it at a later date (Odin marks). Few of us have anything like this much verifiable info.
My own "special order" Triple lock was shipped (probably picked up) by Harry Chase No other information available.
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My own "special order" Triple lock was shipped (probably picked up) by Harry Chase No other information available.
...
It is unfortunate that the records that were available to the SWHF for digitizing only go back to 1920, and it’s apparently not known where the earlier records are or if they even still exist. A single-gun special order by an individual would certainly have been reflected in some correspondence.
You are extremely fortunate to know where and when the gun was originally shipped, and approximately where it was and certain who had it at a later date (Odin marks). Few of us have anything like this much verifiable info.
My own "special order" Triple lock was shipped (probably picked up) by Harry Chase No other information available.
I really didn't anticipate getting this much information when I sent off for the letter. When I purchased the TL the seller didn't disclose the Odin Alex VA import stamp I didn't find that out until I received it. I've gotten some references on the import company but not enough to know when it re-entered the US.
The Shelton Payne info I just researched today I'll dig a little deeper to see if there's more to find out.
You are extremely fortunate to know where and when the gun was originally shipped, and approximately where it was and certain who had it at a later date (Odin marks). Few of us have anything like this much verifiable info.
My own "special order" Triple lock was shipped (probably picked up) by Harry Chase No other information available.
Is it truly a 6" as the letter indicates or actually a 6 1/2"?
It sure looks 6 1/2". Also, despite being mentioned in the literature, I don't think any with 6" barrels were ever produced or at least Roy has never lettered one that didn't end up being a typo.
It is unfortunate that the records that were available to the SWHF for digitizing only go back to 1920, and it’s apparently not known where the earlier records are or if they even still exist. A single-gun special order by an individual would certainly have been reflected in some correspondence.
Yes indeed---special order for an individual absolutely must have a pile of paper to go along with it!
On the other hand, let me go you one better---special order and GIVEN to an individual. Now that most certainly has a pile of paper, including a letter of authorization from someone of weight----right?
I have the invoice---period. The cost to make the gun was charged off to the Advertising account.
I have an early 5" triple lock that lettered to Armeria Quintana (Quintana Hermanos) in Mexico City. Somehow it ended up in Texas, well worn and lacking any finish, but all in all not terribly abused.
I like it when a member posts what the contents of his or her letter are. As many have said could have gone to a police officer, bank teller or even the military. Thanks for sharing. Frank
As stated above, you are very fortunate to have such specific information.....
Great letter and history, Andy52. It is interesting, .44 Special, that your TL 13989 shipped November 10, 1916. My TL 13823, shipped November 14, 1916 to W. G. Walz Co., El Paso. I think I saw a photo of my TL strapped to Pancho Villa ;-). From a historical perspective, 1915-1918 was a rough period on both sides of the border. The Mexican Revolution was underway, the raid on Columbus NM occurred in March 1916, the US Army conducted the "Punitive Expedition" from March 1916 to February 1917, there were numerous violent uprisings (and an outright race riot) on both sides of the border, and "frontier justice" was liberally dispensed by local LE and vigilantes. It was a dangerous and violent period. I'm sure that lots of people who had much to risk - law enforcement, bankers, shopkeepers, ranchers, cattlemen, herders, miners, railroad employees, and people who crossed the border for employment and commerce - armed themselves as best they could. My TL has so much holster wear the sharp crown on the muzzle end of the barrel is worn to a bevel, evidence of days, months, years, possibly decades of being carried in a holster in a dusty, hot, and sandy environment. All of these border TL's from that era have a story to tell!
__________________
Tom in AZ
Respect the Dingbat
Last edited by The Gila Bender; 07-18-2018 at 09:47 PM.
Great letter and history, Andy52. It is interesting, .44 Special, that your TL 13989 shipped November 10, 1916. My TL 13823, shipped November 14, 1916 to W. G. Walz Co., El Paso. I think I saw a photo of my TL strapped to Pancho Villa ;-). From a historical perspective, 1915-1918 was a rough period on both sides of the border. The Mexican Revolution was underway, the raid on Columbus NM occurred in March 1916, the US Army conducted the "Punitive Expedition" from March 1916 to February 1917, there were numerous violent uprisings (and an outright race riot) on both sides of the border, and "frontier justice" was liberally dispensed by local LE and vigilantes. It was a dangerous and violent period. I'm sure that lots of people who had much to risk - law enforcement, bankers, shopkeepers, ranchers, cattlemen, herders, miners, railroad employees - and people who crossed the border for employment and commerce - armed themselves as best they could. My TL has so much holster wear the sharp crown on the muzzle end of the barrel is worn to a bevel, evidence of days, months, possibly years of being carried in a holster in a dusty, hot, and sandy environment. All of these border TL's from that era have a story to tell!
When you said my TL 13989 did you mean the Ser# because the Ser# on mine is 6617? The muzzle on mine is much the same as you described, when looking at it from the muzzle it almost looks oval because it's so worn down on both sides.
Apologies, Andy52. I was specifically referring to post #9 and the TL 13989 that belongs to ".44 Special". That TL and my TL shipped four days and 166 numbers apart from each other. Funny thing about the oval shape you describe. Yep, mine is oval-ish on the outside, but the bore is still round!
__________________
Tom in AZ
Respect the Dingbat
Last edited by The Gila Bender; 07-18-2018 at 09:43 PM.
Reason: Correction, TL's shipped four (4) days apart.
Apologies, Andy52. I was specifically referring to post #9 and the TL 13989 that belongs to ".44 Special". That TL and my TL shipped one day apart and are 166 numbers apart from each other. Funny thing about the oval shape you describe. Yep, mine is oval-ish on the outside, but the bore is still round!
I kinda' figured that you were talking to 44 Special but I wasn't sure. When received my TL and looked at the muzzle I had to check the bore to make sure it was true because with all the wear it has a optical inclusion of being out of round.
PS: That said, people have claimed to recognize a TL in the gun he is holding in this picture.
I think it has to be a Triple Lock. Despite the horrible blur from camera movement during exposure, we can see hard edges in a couple of places that make it look very much like a S&W and not like a Colt of the same era. It appears to have an ejector rod shroud. Villa died in 1923, and by that time the only S&W revolver to have been manufactured with an ejector shroud was the TL. All other N-frames (the .455 and .44 Second Models, as well as the 1917) had exposed ejector rods.
I would imagine this argument has been made before, but I am lazy today and didn't bother to look back through the archives to find where this photo has been previously discussed.
Triple Lock letter came today
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