The son of a friend has just started collecting S&Ws. He has a 2" blue M&P with a landyard ring. All numbers match except there is no number under the BBl. It is for sure a factory Smith bbl. My guess is that this was a police weapon rebarreled to 2" . I see no indication it was done by S&W. Serial # is S7956XX.

Farmboy

There is a problem with the serial, as S 7956xx can’t be legit for an M&P. However, an SV prefix could be for a late Victory frame. That would also account for the lanyard swivel. The barrel without serial would indeed be a replacement.

With an S serial number the gun is an N Frame most likely, although it could be an M&P between 1945-48. A lanyard ring could be special ordered on any gun so that isn't helpful. Pictures would help.

Unless you put an extra X in the serial #, it's not an N frame.

Since you didn't mention it has a "US Property" roll mark on the top strap it's a 38 M&P (postwar) but not yet a Pre Model 10, commercial model made after the war in 1945/46 if its' a 38 Spl.

Although it's within the normal Victory Model serial # range, w/o a V in the serial # on the butt, that also indicates a com'l model. The lanyard ring was still standard on these "in-between models", especially one numbered in the Victory # range.

The Pre Model 10s are reported to have begun at # S990184 with the short throw hammer action.

It's not likely to be a police dept gun or it would likely have a dept name or # on it.

The 2" models are scarce and 300 are known to have shipped to the Dept of Justice. You're correct, the missing serial # on the barrel indicates the 2" barrel was purchased from S&W and gunsmith installed.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Re-check the serial number. It should be on the butt and also on the rear face of the cylinder. Obviously it is incorrect as stated. Could possibly be SV 7956xx, but the barrel would not be original without a SN.

Jim:
Can’t be a commercial S-prefix model without a V at that number. Jack or DWalt should have a more precise number, but I believe the earliest post-war S-prefix serials with no V occurred above 815xxx or so.

The lowest S number (without the V) I have actually seen was S8124xx. There are quite a few of them in the S812xxx range, but SV guns also show up in that range.

The records indicate the first S gun assembled was S811120, assembled on September 12, 1945, but I have never located that gun.

So, S7956XX should not exist. Numbers that low would have the SV prefix. It is possible, of course, that the swivel hole was drilled after the gun left the factory, obscuring the V. Since it has had a barrel change, perhaps both operations were performed at the same time. I would suggest looking on the rear face of the cylinder to see what serial number is stamped there; and checking for the SV prefix in that location.

Incidentally, no 2" guns show up that early. There is little doubt this gun has had an aftermarket barrel replacement. But that also means the extractor rod was replaced at the same time. And this does not contradict the notion that "[I]t is for sure a factory Smith bbl." But it did not leave the factory in this configuration.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Yeah seems odd, huh? If the # is correct.

Post war commercial models are variously reported beginning S769XXX in Dec 1944 and S818820 in Sept. 1945. I'm not sure anyone knows for sure what # the com'l model w/o the V actually began except maybe Pate.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

As points of reference, consider these facts:
1. The lowest SV serial I have actually located is SV732261. It went to the Navy on June 29, 1945. However, factory records show that SV guns started shipping in January, 1945. Assembly started in December, 1944, but I don't think we know what serial numbers those guns bore.
2. I also show SV769844 as a commercial gun that shipped on March 22, 1946. So maybe it was assembled 15 months earlier, but I rather doubt it. It clearly was intended for commercial sale, since it wears a factory commercial blue finish.
3. I don't know about S818820, but S818735 was a commercial gun that shipped in August, 1946. I have half a dozen S818xxx guns listed in my database. All were commercial shipments from around the same time. The lowest number is S8180xx.
4. The highest serial number gun shipped to the Navy (Norfolk Yard) before the war ended was SV802722. It left the factory on August 13, 1945, the day before Japan capitulated.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Also, Jinks (p. 166) gives S811120 as the first serial number to lack the V. He says it was assembled on September 12, 1945 (see Post #7, above).

I have examined SV811119 (the number just prior). It has the V, was assembled on August 27, 1945, and shipped on March 1, 1946.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Obviously there's a tremendous amount of ambiguity around the M&Ps.

Besides the usual serial # lack of chronology for production and shipping that frustrates us all so much as we know, and the transition periods with overlapping changes (i.e. V, SV, and S stamps in this case), we also have the added complication of another model in the same serial range; the 38/200 BSR.

For example the "Book" lists the highest SV # as 811823, above the 1st S #s, whether they be S769000 or S811120. So I believe the usual anomalies are afoot here in spades.

And S7956XX could be anything including with a lanyard swivel thru the V as you posted Jack. We need confirmation on the # from Farmboy before I pull out what little hair I have left!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The BSR is one we don't have to worry about here. According to all available documentation, no BSR's were built with the new hammer block. According to Pate, the remaining British contracts were cancelled in January 1945, just when the US version with the SV serial began shipping, and that timeframe matches the highest-numbered BSR which the Victory database contains, V 775163, no S.

The only exception are the post-Victory BSR's for the Dutch East Indies in the S-890-range, but those are unicorns immediately recognizable by the KNIL stamp.

Thanks for that #, I've not seen it before. So there were no SV BSRs.

I presume the Dutch order did have the pw safety hammer block then.

Another anomaly with the M&Ps is that the Transitional models before the short throw hammer, between S811120 and M&P #S990184 and the K38 Target #S924878 are 'clumped' in with the 38 M&P - Pre-Model 10.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

At least nobody that I’m aware of has documented a BSR with a SV serial.

As far as the Dutch guns and the hammer block is concerned, one would presume that. I remember this question coming up, either when Roy posted the invoice a while back or when our late member Cyrano actually acquired one, but I don’t recall a definite answer.

One could imagine S&W used “left-over” BSR barrels and cylinders from the war, but since the frames and all other parts were identical, there is no reason to think they didn’t come out of current production (they shipped in 1947) and thus had the hammer block.

But back to the OPs gun - he has yet to confirm the SN. Maybe Farmboy has lost interest. A genuine S7956xx would confound previous opinions as to when the S-series began.

"So there were no SV BSRs."
At least none are known to exist. By the beginning of 1945 the British forces had more than enough guns to finish the war. And pretty much the same was true for the USA. It would be very interesting for someone to go through the 1945 records to determine just how many of the SV-series revolvers were shipped to the U. S. military and DSC.

I don't, of course, have access to the shipping records, but in my database are at least 20 SV guns that went to the Navy. They range from SV732261 to SV802722, with ship dates ranging from January, 1945, to mid-August, 1945. The serial numbers are mingled with several hundred that shipped to civilian locations, mostly distributors but in some cases police departments. One shipment to a distributor in early March, 1946, included 800 units.

All but one of the military guns have the property stamp, and most of those show as going to one of the Navy yards (Norfolk and Oakland included - I don't have destinations for a couple of them). The one without the property stamp was a DSC gun, as we would expect.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Roy just provided a ship date - August, 1945.

Based on nearby serials, I believe this gun likely had a 4" barrel and shipped to the Navy. A whole bunch of them with nearby serial numbers went to the Oakland Yard. Shipments were spread out, though, running from April to August. Most of the examples I've accounted for left the factory in May.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Does anyone have records of any V-guns (no S) that shipped to the military, which would mostly have been Navy, after January 1945?

I have this idea, let’s call it a “working suspicion”, that after January 1945 the factory could no longer ship V-guns without the safety upgrade to the Navy. Any still in store would have shipped to DSC recipients.

S&W might even have had a “fire sale” offering these to police. I’m basing this idea mostly on the curious case of the 400 DSC Victorys that shipped to the Louisville police in June 1945; I have about 10 documented by now, all with serials in the early to mid-600-range indicating manufacture a year earlier. Roy opined they may have been held back due to QC issues. And the Louisville police had barely 400 employees at the time and has no idea why the chief would have ordered that many guns, unless he saw an opportunity to stock up at a great price. The order was shipped within one day of arriving, so those guns must have been ready to go.

One correction:

This is not true, although it was thought to be for a long time. See the article in the Summer 2017 issue of the Journal. No offense intended but we need to understand that new information trumps old myths.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Burk:

Yep. In the Victory Model Database I find several V-prefix .38 Special guns in the higher 700000 range, but without shipping data.

This one is interesting: V795314. It is recorded as a 2 inch gun in .38 Special with left top strap markings of ð U.S. PROPERTY GHD. The Database shows it as part of the holdings of the Museum at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point. No shipping data, but a very high serial number for a V-prefix gun in .38 Special.

There were also a couple of high 700000 .38 Special guns with V-prefixes which ended up with the Wesson family (non-military recipients, of course). Like almost everything with S&W, it is difficult to apply a hard and fast cut-off date or serial number for anything.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Interesting. I just checked my database. I show a handful of V prefix (no S) that shipped after January, 1945. They are in the V750xxx, V760xxx and V770xxx range. None of them went to the Navy. One of them was chambered for the .38 S&W, has the property stamp and GHD on the top strap (making it a BSR Lend/Lease revolver, not a Navy gun).

This doesn't prove anything but it fits your hypothesis.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Are we talking about S-series or SV-series SNs? I am confused.

Sorry Guys but the serial # is correct (no V) Shipping date as confirmed by Roy was August 1945. No, it is not a N frame. Roy believes as do I that this has a replacement BBl. It is a genuine S&W bbl with correct roll marks (no military or police marks anywhere on the gun. Anybody can guess if Smith did it or some gunsmith.

Farmboy

I should clarify once more, this is a S serial # (NO V) The # is S7956XX . Shipped in August of 45. All numbers match except there is none under the BBl. Hence it must be a replacement bbl.

Farmboy

Ooookay....

If the "S/no V prefix"-serial number matches on multiple parts, that nixes the V drilled out by a belated lanyard hole.

And it seems somehow unlikely a sloppy stamper would "forget" the V on multiple parts.

I'm out of ideas other than "legitimate unicorn".

And since Roy confirmed the serial, he mooted his earlier statement as to the earliest S-prefix. Might be worth discussing with him.

Well Farmboy, thx for an interesting thread.

Your friend's gun is what it is, a righteous S&W with just an obvious barrel change.

Knowing what I stated in my post #11, I just don't get surprised by these kinds of surprises anymore and it just reinforces my belief in the proverbial axiom when it comes to S&Ws: "The main rule is, there are no rules."

Like archaeology, every new discovery rewrites history. That's part of what gives us so much enjoyment in the study and collecting of Smths.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

So the next question is - to where was it shipped in August of 45? And were there others in the same shipment?

So, where are the pics, hmmmmmm???

I don't own the gun, I just evaluated it for a friend and got the ship date from Roy. I will see about pics, but probably not. One other thing. The thing does not have original stocks. They are service style checkered diamond center with no S&W esct. They have slightly convex wood ala 1930's style. I should have removed them to see if there was a factory service mark that could maybe explain the rebarrel. For the poster who believes no S# M&Ps exist, please know that I own 3 myself. 2 4" and 1 2".

Farmboy

OK, how about pictures of the ones you do own, especially that 2" gun?

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

I just read carefully every post in this thread. No one ever suggested there were no S prefix M&P revolvers. Most of the posts clearly acknowledge there were. In fact, something in the neighborhood of 180,000 of them were made. Nearly two dozen of those live in my safe.

What was being debated is the appearance of the S with no V on a gun with as low a serial number as you supplied. That's the part that is unusual.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I have a wild theory. Is it possible that this revolver started life as SN 7956xx (no letter prefix) and was later factory-converted to the improved drop safety and the S-prefix added in appropriate locations?

It’s wild, but seems possible. Could be a gun that had been held back due to QC issues, and then somehow got caught up in the refurbishment batch of 40,000 for the Navy in 1945. Does anyone know whether there are two shipping dates on those, that is, could Roy mistake a re-ship August 1945 date for an original ship date?

How wild is it really?

Is # S7956XX built with the sliding bar hammer block or does it have the small S on the side plate near the rear most screw proving it was converted (and also stamped with an S on the butt which it has)?

Could a pre 1943 M&P Model of 1905 - 4th change from the 1940-1942 production # range of ~700000 to 1000000 be in the hands of the Navy to be caught up in the batch of 40,000 returned for the conversion?

And w/o the "Property of US Navy" stamp below the thumb release?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Unfortunately, the S stamp on the sideplate doesn't prove it was converted. Beginning in December, 1944, all the sideplates machined for the new hammer block safety were stamped with the S, to make it easy to identify them as sideplates that would fit on guns with the modified lockwork. That S mark shows up on all the newer guns as well as the converted guns well into early postwar production.

That said, Absalom's theory is certainly a viable one.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Actually, DWalt came up with it, I just added speculation

Come to think of it, there is the potential for quite a few accidental "duplicate serials" between upgraded S-stamped pre-Victorys and genuine S-prefix M&P's.

The Navy received significant numbers of revolvers in the pre-V 900-thousand range, at that early time property stamping was spotty, and probability says that a percentage of those were included in the batch shipped back for upgrading on the May 1945 contract.

But do we know that the S was added to the serial number on the butt on the upgraded revolvers? I'm not sure we do. In fact, I suspect it wasn't. The sideplate would have the S, of course, since it would have to be modified.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Apparently yes. Attached an example from Pate’s book.

Attached Images

43020F3D-54B7-4378-9A9A-59598DD4AF29.jpg (67.3 KB, 30 views)

Yep. Very good. Thanks.

I'll have to get Pate back off the shelf and reintroduce myself to various aspects of his analysis.

It would be interesting to see if any pre-V guns got this same treatment.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Excellent point, Kevin.

By the 900-thousands, at least some of the numbers were stamped in the Victory orientation, and an apparent S-prefix could result from the upgrade.

But at the 795-time of the OP’s friend’s gun, the serials should have been in the old orientation, making the extra S a suffix.

Attached Images

5F353F07-86BA-43D7-AA93-718FCFD47ECD.jpg (51.5 KB, 23 views)

The gun I posted is interesting in that it started life as one of the U.S.N.C.P.C. guns with blue finish and checkered grips. Even though it was reworked and got the S on the butt, the side plate is clear: no S.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

I'm going to throw a little more gas on this fire. The M&P in question does not have the new style hammer block. I find this to be not too uncommon as many are discarded after disassembly. Now I'm going to try to talk the owner into letting me take off the side plate and see if its machined for it. I did not notice a small S on the outside of the sideplate. I never have posted pics and don't even have a camera. Now just one more thing for an old Farmboy to learn. I hope to show some pics soon but I will be out of town shooting in the ATA Grand American for the next 2 weeks. This will be my 42 consecutive year. Most of the S&Ws I have were purchased years ago to shoot and not collect. All of a sudden I find myself with some valuable Smiths, including a Reg. Mag from the original owner, and his pre-war 38/44 Outdoorsman. Both Pristine with original boxes. Not so pristine but still very nice 1926 post war target and 1950 targets.

Farmboy

Farmboy.

Good luck at the matches!
And we'll be anxious to get more "evidence" when you return!

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Jim
S&WCA #819