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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 07-27-2018, 03:59 PM
jmiles1960 jmiles1960 is offline
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Default Help Identifying S&W 45 LC Hand Ejector

I found the markings on this hand ejector interesting and could not leave the store without it. Well worn and a decent price. Hoping to figure out it's origin and some history. Details below:

Hand ejector model, 5 screw, S&W logo almost gone on right side.
6 1/2 inch barrel
45 Colt stamped on right side of barrel
Frame and barrel serial number: 39965
Top of barrel: patent dates go from Oct 1901 - Dec 1908
Faint "Smith & Wesson" on left side of barrel
Yoke and crane numbers match: 4304
There are numerous proof / markings as shown in the pics. There is a lanyard swivel hole in butt, ring is missing.
Grips in the first picture are not original. Original grips are shown in separate picture. I removed them before shooting.

If anyone can identify the markings or model info, I would greatly appreciate it. If there is book or URL to decipher these marking, please let me know. I am guessing either British or Canadian

I took it to the range and shoots nicely; slightly out of time but not a big deal. You can see the original finish is virtually all gone. The checkering on the original grips looks almost too crisp to go with the gun's condition. IDK. I stuck a spare set of N-Frame magnas on it for now.

Thank you!
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Old 07-27-2018, 04:04 PM
jmiles1960 jmiles1960 is offline
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Default More pics

More pics of the markings

These are the grips (original?) on the revolver as purchased.

Although the frame and underside barrel serial numbers match, I thought the font of "45 Colt" looked unlike usual S&W stamping... could this revolver have been converted from .455 previously?

There was no serial number on the cylinder chamber edge. Just the markings on the outside, a marking next to each chamber....

I removed the screws; was about to take a look inside the action.

Thanks again for the help.
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Old 07-27-2018, 04:38 PM
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Pretty clearly started life as a "455 Mk II Hand Ejector - 2nd Model" British Service Revolver as you surmised, likely shipped around 1915 for WW I.

1. The grips are the original style; if original to the gun the serial # matching the gun is written on the back of the right right. Will take some effort with good light and magnification to read it.

2. Appears to have been returned to S&W for some rework or refinishing performed on 3/7/21 (date on grip frame.)

3. Apparently gunsmith converted to 45 Colt by shaving cyl (hence no serial # on rear face), and reamed for the longer cartrdige.

4. The sideplate has proper large logo, like the later post 1935 logo. Beware of replacement, if original will have the matching assembly #4304 on the inside surface you can look for if you still have it off.

5. Many of these revolvers in your serial # range were not stamped by S&W with the 455 Cartridge roll mark on the barrel.

6. From the exterier stampings, we know it saw service with the Brits. A thread to help decipher them: My new .455 HE 2nd Model
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Old 07-27-2018, 05:13 PM
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Jim (Hondo44), Thanks very much for this info! The side plate does have the same part number "4304" (pics attached). I could not find anything on the back of the grips under the best of light and magnification.

Any opinion on how this revolver would have made it back to the US, if it is was intended as Brit military weapon? Are these commonly found and of any real value / interest? It fits into my hand ejector set as a different gun from the others; I am just curious if or how unique it might be as a S&W collectible.

Would a S&W letter add value and possibly more history? I will follow up on the markings article you referenced. Again, many thanks for your expertise and knowledge sharing.

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Old 07-27-2018, 05:30 PM
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Your 45 has been refinished at least once from the looks of the rebound slide stud being polished flat. Also it went back to the factory for service work looks like March 7th 1921. Is there an asterisk next to the serial number on the butt? There is a lot of meaning in those stamps on the frame and cylinder that some of our military collectors can give you information on. For example I can tell you that it was released from service at Enfield and it has been identified as a second model. Those stamps are over on the left-hand upper part of the frame.

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Old 07-27-2018, 05:36 PM
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"Would a S&W letter add value and possibly more history?"

In its present non-original circumstances, a letter would add no value as it has minimal to no collector interest which would be enhanced by a letter. And the historical information already provided here is about as much as you would get from a letter.
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:17 PM
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Welcome to the Forum.

The Brits shipped back to the States a number of their surplus firearms. These firearms had to pass British proof testing in order to be sent off.
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:20 PM
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Thanks for everyone's feedback. Great info and much appreciated.

I read the thread about the "S&W .455 MKII...." and there is a book referenced in several places with page numbers. Does anyone know or can recommend "the" S&W Collector's reference book(s)?
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:24 PM
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There are a number of reference books that have been published over the years. The most comprehensive and current is the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson 4th edition by Supica and Nahas.


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Old 07-27-2018, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jmiles1960 View Post
Jim (Hondo44), Thanks very much for this info! The side plate does have the same part number "4304" (pics attached). I could not find anything on the back of the grips under the best of light and magnification.

Any opinion on how this revolver would have made it back to the US, if it is was intended as Brit military weapon? Are these commonly found and of any real value / interest? It fits into my hand ejector set as a different gun from the others; I am just curious if or how unique it might be as a S&W collectible.

Would a S&W letter add value and possibly more history? I will follow up on the markings article you referenced. Again, many thanks for your expertise and knowledge sharing.

Jim Miles
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Jim,

They are very collectible if original and in excellent condition. But also in demand as good shooters. Although it's not collectible in present modified and worn condition, the 45 Colt chambering is a plus for shootability and finding ammo.

A letter will only reveal the date it was shipped to Remington UMC, that acted as the British procurement agent for delivery to England. It will provide a little history and that not quite 70,000 of these 2nd models were produced by S&W under contract to the Brits. Not worth the price of a letter in my opinion.

Many thousands have returned to the states officially when sold off as war surplus by the Brits thru US importers and several by other "unofficial" means such as G.I. duffel bags, etc. Many have been converted to popular US cartridges like 45 Colt and 45 ACP/AR which they shoot quite well. Making good originals that much harder to find and pricier.

Thousands never made it to England and were sold in the US as brand new over production thru S&W's regular distributors. These are easy to spot because they lack any British Import, export and/or proof house stampings.

The following history is far more detailed than you'd get in a letter and covers all versions produced:


THERE ARE THREE BASIC VERSIONS OF .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. All three groups include some triple locks, but those in the 3rd group are actually 1st versions. “When” roll marked with the cal., those that are roll marked are only marked S&W 455 because all three versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the ‘book name’ references of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer.

This is not be confused with the British revolver name “MK II” for the “455 Mark II HE – 2nd Model, which the British stamped “II” on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.
The WWI British contract Colt is marked ".455 ELEY", different than The S&W 455 marking.

They are:

1. “.44 HE - 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’, chambered for .455: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown but most or all were likely originally .44 Spl. For the British military there are 666 #s 1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the majority shipped Oct 21, 1914. The extra 146 in serial range #s 9858-10007 went to the commercial market; 123 to England Oct 1,1914, and 23 in the US Jan 1, 1918 [N&J pgs. 203-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #’d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1104 to 10417. Per Neal & Jinks. Pg. 214, these are known to have been stamped SMITH & WESSON but not including the 455 cal. stamp.

* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it’s actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&W N&J pgs. 203 - 205].

The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.

The 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially; 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.

The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it’s unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.

2. “.455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL” in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15. Thus creating 63* duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version in #1. above in the “.44 HE 1st Model TL” chambered in .455, serial number range.

*There are 63 duplicate TL #s existing of the 666 contract listed numbers of .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (1st version), #s 1104-3320 in the .44 HE #range - not all inclusive, known and listed, with 63 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (2nd version) #s 1–5461 in the Brit contract # range.

There’s also duplicate #s of the .44 HE 1st Model TL .455s #5462 to #15375 (the last .44 HE 1st Model TL serial # known), of ~796 with .455 HE 2nd Models (3rd version) #s 5462 up thru #10007 in the Brit range, but the exact #s of duplicates is unknown because not all #s are known to have been used in either range.


3.A. “.455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from versions 1. the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and 2. the ".455 HE 1st Model TL" produced in .455.
This version was referred to as the MK II revolver and stamped ‘II’ by the British on the left side frame like yours.

The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17.

By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203].

Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916.

The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models [H of S&W, pg. 203].

And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].


3.B. “.44 HE - 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’. “As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April, H of S&W pg. 203] 1916, S&W found enough [44 HE frames and 455] parts to build 691 .44 HE 1st Model [per Roy Jinks in various letters], Triple Lock frames [like #1. above chambered in .455]. These guns are numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially.” Lee Jarrett

11/3/15 “In April, 1916, the Factory found enough parts to assemble 691 Triple Lock 455s. They were assembled from April to Oct of 1916. They were numbered [late] in the 44 HE series. All I have seen are numbered from the 12,000 to 14,000's. [sold in 1916 and 1917 - 325 were sold to Shapleigh Hardware Co. and some to Simmons Hardware Co., St. Louis, MO]
Some letter as being commercial sales, but I have long suspected that S&W simply slid many into the last of the British shipments at the standard price for the 455-2nd Models. I say that because I have observed several now with Brit ordnance marks and/or commercial proofs.” Lee Jarrett

I hope this is helpful,
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:54 PM
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"the" S&W Collector's reference books can/will be a mixed bag---depending on what sort of S&W's get your motor running. That fact aside for the time being, here's some for your consideration:

Smith & Wesson 1857-1945. This is bedtime reading for highly technical nit-pickers---and we are EVERYWHERE!!

History of Smith & Wesson. Don't be fooled by the title----lots of good stuff about the guns. It carries a 1977 copyright-----has been reprinted many times---has not been revised.

Standard Catalog Of Smith & Wesson. If you were to buy only one book, it would be a BIG mistake-----but this is the one to buy. It came into being in 1996---treated with all since the beginning---has been revised/updated four times, most recently two years ago.

I could go on ad nauseam, but if I did, I'd be talking about books applicable to a comparatively narrow field of interest---whatever it may be.

There is one reference work which should be mentioned, in spite of the fact part of it's sold out. That is The S&W Journal. On the one hand, this is a periodical published by the S&W Collectors Association. It consists of articles authored by SWCA members. On the other hand it is a four volume compilation of all them (1969-1992). The content is as varied as it is priceless---information to be had nowhere else at any price.

Ralph Tremaine

And the content of the post immediately preceding this one is an example of the staggering wisdom extant within SWCA-----and The Journal.

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Old 07-27-2018, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jmiles1960 View Post
Thanks for everyone's feedback. Great info and much appreciated.

I read the thread about the "S&W .455 MKII...." and there is a book referenced in several places with page numbers. Does anyone know or can recommend "the" S&W Collector's reference book(s)?
Jim,

The history I provided above is a summary from the following sources, plus more detail shared here on this forum by knowledgeable collectors, and my own observations:

History of S&W by Roy Jinks (S&W Historian)
S&W 1857-1945 by Roy Jinks and Robert Neal
Standard Catalog or S&W, 4th ed., by Supica and Nahas

P.S. I see Ralph gave a much better, more specific, and detailed response already.
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Old 07-27-2018, 07:15 PM
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I had one of these .455 to .45 Colt conversions many years ago. If you reload, be aware that the cylinder is kinda short. I used to shot a lot of Keith style semi wadcutters and these bullets have to be deep seated and then crimped over the front band in order to work.
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Old 07-27-2018, 07:41 PM
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They can stick out of the cyl just a bit depending on the size of the bar/cyl gap which will compensate.
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:39 PM
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Those grips are worth half of what your gun is worth.
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Old 07-27-2018, 10:06 PM
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Gentlemen, you all are Jedi masters of the S&W collector and history hobby! I greatly appreciate the info and feedback from everyone. I plan to join the S&WCA and look forward to joining in on future discussions as my S&W collection and knowledge grows.

I will give this old HE Mk II a good cleaning, keep the original grips in a safe place and enjoy a few outings at the range. I actually started out with the .45 Scofield round initially, just to be on the safe side given the gun's age.

Thanks again - Jim Miles
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:55 AM
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I would like to replace the lanyard loop and hand (correct slight timing issue). Would this revolver have used the same size/part as the 1917? Also, suggestions where to find original parts or best source(s). The hand on this model has the leaf spring holding it in place. I have Jerry K's book for reference. Thanks
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Old 07-28-2018, 12:40 PM
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Yes, you can use the same type hand as is in a Model 1917. Also the modern N-frame hand will work. Modern as in from 1950 onward. Any hand may require some fitting. You will only need one that is .001-.002 wider than the one that is currently fitted. You can try Jack First or Numrich for parts. Both have websites.

Your attention is invited here.

Parts Interchangeability between N-frame Generations
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Old 07-28-2018, 04:34 PM
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Is the timing issue poor 'follow up', slow cocking it doesn't lock the cyl by the time the hammer cocks?

If so, peening the teeth on the extractor star is much simpler than finding and fitting a new hand.

When the cylinder is a few thousandths short of advancing completely to lock up, known as "carry up", just do the following very minor repair.

The hand is made of harder steel than the teeth since it has six times the contacts of each tooth, and this is a typical result after many rounds of shooting. That's why I would not install a new hand, it already has the advantage.

With the cylinder open in a vertical position, use a flat tipped punch to very gently peen each of the 6 ratchet teeth on the rear vertical surface of the edge contacted by the hand. One tap on each tooth will usually do it and the gun will function perfectly for another 20+ years. I've fixed so many that way I can't count them.

I have more detail if your interested in this repair.

LANYARD SWIVELS are not difficult to find. The correct one for those guns made pre war is case hardened (polished but little color), not the later parkerized finish or sand blasted and blued.

A few other possible sources:

Jeff Lee: Lee's Gun Parts (an extensive supply of gun parts, including S&W)
(Open to the public on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays).
3401 W. Pioneer, Suite 2, Irving, TX 75061
Phone: 972-790-0773
Lee's Gun Parts



Jan Matlega: Parts for Pre-WWII S&W hand-ejectors.
Mail Address: 528 Eddy Glover
New Britain, CT 06053
Phone: 860-229-6872

Poppert's Gun Parts: Poppert's Gun Parts Main Menu
P.O. Box 413
Glenside, PA 19038
Tel: 215-887-2391 Fax: 215-887-5816
Email: [email protected]

Phil Saccacio: Phone: 540-456-6405
e-Mail: [email protected]

Mike Veilleux: Guns and Gun Parts
All Parts inc. for Pre- and Post-WWII S&W's.
Phone: 413-732-9938
e-Mail: [email protected]
Web Site: Guns n Parts - New and Used Guns Bought and Sold.


Liberty Tree Collectors Phone:207-285-3111
139 Main Street, Corinth, ME 04427
Email:[email protected]
Liberty tree collectors has original, CCH lanyard rings (but without the retaining pin) for $25.

S&W Parts; antique and new
[email protected]
Ph: 352 394-7412
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S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 07-30-2018 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 07-28-2018, 10:03 PM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is online now
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If you get a lanyard loop and can't find the pin, you can make one from a drill bit or a nail.
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Old 07-30-2018, 10:33 AM
jmiles1960 jmiles1960 is offline
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Thanks again for everyone's help with this HE. I'm going to take a look at Hondo's (Jim) suggestion for fixing the timing issue. For as much as I shoot my old models, I may leave this one as-is for now. We'll see. Now, she's under going a good internal cleaning; action was full of gunk and crud.

The lanyard pin is still in place. There are a few on the 'bay advertised as originals and I will check out other recommended parts dealers.

Any recommendations on how to best preserve the wood grips? I noticed hairline cracks on the back; I suspect the wood is dry from age. What do you guys use on these vintage grips? These do not need refinishing. I've heard everything from lemon oil to Casey's TruOil. Thanks!
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Old 07-30-2018, 11:44 AM
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You might want to check the end shake (amount cylinder moves back and forth) an excess of end shake can cause slow timing as the cylinder moving away from the recoils shield and the hand can cause the hand to slip by the ratchet tooth a bit sooner. End shank is an easy fix.

Here is a stock 455 2nd model that is unconverted
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269 View Post
" This is bedtime reading for highly technical nit-pickers---and we are EVERYWHERE!!


Standard Catalog Of Smith & Wesson. ---has been revised/updated four times, most recently two years ago.


Ralph Tremaine

And the content of the post immediately preceding this one is an example of the staggering wisdom extant within SWCA-----and The Journal.
Well, since we are nit-picking, the SCSW is in the fourth edition, so means it has been revised THREE times.
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