Model 1917 .45 Revolver

[SFlanigan]

I own a S&W Model 1917 .45 revolver that used to be my Grandfather's service revolver. The SN starts with 104xxx.

Are there any recommended websites I could visit that may have a database on these serial numbers? I would like to see exactly how old this firearm is, if possible.

I do still shoot it with .45 ACP's when I shoot my S&W .45 M&P Shield. It's amazing how a weapon of it's age, (speaking of the Model 1917) is still spot-on target and fires so beautifully.

Thanks for any help that can be provided, and if anyone is wondering, NO, I am not interested in selling this gun!

[murphydog]

Welcome! Here is a reliable link to look this information up:

U.S. Military Dates of Manufacture

We would like to hear its (and your grandfather's) story, please! Hope this is helpful.

[deyomatic]

Photos, Please!

[H Richard]

I'm guessing your 1917 dates to 1918-1920. As long as you stay with standard velocity ammo you should be fine. I have a Bazillion model, same as a 1917, which I shoot a few times a year. Mine will shoot right along side my 25-2.

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum.

Please post pictures and give us what info you would like to share about your grandfather's service-branch of service, years served, etc. It is my understanding that the 1917 revolvers-both Colt and S&W, were issued to artillerymen, National Guardsmen and to soldiers who were not on the front lines.

[Hawg Rider]

My Model of 1917, 132xxx, dates to late 1918. Yours would probably date to mid- to early 1918. You didn't mention whether or not your grandfather saw action in Europe, but your revolver certainly could be an old warhorse. As H Richard says, it is fun to shoot and just as accurate as my Model 25-2. I use moon clips in both revolvers...2-rd, 3-rd, and 6-rd. You can easily find moonclips for sale online. BTW- most Forum members never encourage the selling of family heirlooms like yours, especially when they have a great history. Enjoy!

[DWalt]

Most of the S&W M1917s which went to the military were made and shipped in 1918 (as the war ended then, although some deliveries were made in 1919). #169959 is given as being the last of those. Moon clips are not essential, but they facilitate fired case extraction. There are some very good replica M1917 flap holsters available at a reasonable price from several sources.

[ABPOS]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

Welcome to the Forum.

Please post pictures and give us what info you would like to share about your grandfather's service-branch of service, years served, etc. It is my understanding that the 1917 revolvers-both Colt and S&W, were issued to artillerymen, National Guardsmen and to soldiers who were not on the front lines.

I would imagine it depends on which war. Like for example, in Vietnam, I think some tunnel rats used various revolvers, including the 1917. And I would think they'd be considered "Front Line".

And I do believe I have pictures of soldiers on the front line in WWII with 1917's.

[Kinman]

I'm quite certain that many people that were not supposed to carry a particular firearm while serving in a combat area found a way to get their hands on one. I "relocated" a 1911 and its web belt that was carelessly left dangling over the seatback of a jeep by a shavetail lieutenant. Where I was stationed you couldn't leave a reel to reel tapedeck playing and fall asleep without waking up to no music in your headphones, look down and no tape deck. Same with a fan, fall asleep with a fan running, wake up sweating...no fan. I hated the company area, den of thieves, dope fiends and drunks. The first thing I had ripped off was my camo poncho liner, nobody used them as a poncho liner they had jackets made out of them or used them as a blanket when it got chilly in the rainy season.

[DWalt]

"I would imagine it depends on which war. Like for example, in Vietnam, I think some tunnel rats used various revolvers, including the 1917. And I would think they'd be considered "Front Line"."

I had a former Marine tunnel rat who worked for me about 25 years ago. He once told me he used a Victory .38 revolver. I suppose those guys used whatever handgun they could get their hands on.

[one eye joe]

Originally Posted by SFlanigan

I own a S&W Model 1917 .45 revolver that used to be my Grandfather's service revolver. The SN starts with 104xxx.

Are there any recommended websites I could visit that may have a database on these serial numbers? I would like to see exactly how old this firearm is, if possible.

I do still shoot it with .45 ACP's when I shoot my S&W .45 M&P Shield. It's amazing how a weapon of it's age, (speaking of the Model 1917) is still spot-on target and fires so beautifully.

Thanks for any help that can be provided, and if anyone is wondering, NO, I am not interested in selling this gun!

I'M SO HAPPY TO READ THAT YOU ARE APPRECIATING AND ENJOYING THIS OL' WAR HORSE, JUST AS IT WAS PASSED DOWN TO YOU--WITHOUT ANY THOUGHT OF SELLING IT. YOUR GRANDPA MUST BE VERY HAPPY......

[Jack Flash]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

Welcome to the Forum.

Please post pictures and give us what info you would like to share about your grandfather's service-branch of service, years served, etc. It is my understanding that the 1917 revolvers-both Colt and S&W, were issued to artillerymen, National Guardsmen and to soldiers who were not on the front lines.

Getting back to WWI, it was my impression that the M1917 revolvers, just like the M1917 rifle, were generally issued as a substitute standard. Of course I may be wrong about this.

Someone once said on this forum that they were also known to have been issued to US WWI fighter pilots. I don't have any references so I hope someone else can speak up.

[DWalt]

Both the 1917 revolvers and 1917 Enfield rifles saw considerable front-line use during WWI. There were never enough Colt M1911s and Springfield '03s for everyone. Harry Truman was an artillery captain during WWI and he carried a M1917 revolver. I don't remember if it was a Colt or a S&W. I once had a journal hand-written by a WWI foot soldier who had seen combat, and he referred several times to carrying a revolver, although he was not specific about what kind. A very detailed and lengthy journal. He had done occupation duty in Germany for awhile after the Armistice and wasn't shipped back to the USA until late 1919. There were some interesting stories in the journal about that. I later found the soldier's grandson and gave the journal and some letters to him. He told me about what his grandfather did after he returned from the war - he became a veterinarian and helped found the Texas A&M Vet College.

[ABPOS]

In the book "With the Old Breed" with E.B.Sledge. He carried a 1917. But in this case his Dad gave it to him before he went. His Dad was a doctor in WWI. E.B. Sledge was in the 1st Marine Division, I think it was. And was in Pelielu and Guadalcanal. And Okinawa. He was definitely on the front lines.

Not really an "as issued" item in this case, of course, but nevertheless carried and used.

If you've never read the book, I recommend it.

Amazon

 

Amazon

It is one of the books the Miniseries "The Pacific" is based on. Along with "Helmet For My Pillow" by Robert Leckie.

The miniseries is also very good.

The thing is, all kinds of weird stuff happens in war. And handguns are one of them items that gets convoluted as to who carried what. But there is no doubt in my mind that 1917's were used by combat people. Sure, 1911's were probably the majority. But keeping up with the demand of all the troops in WWII was not an easy task. And you have a lot of anomolies out there having to do with command too.

In my Grandfathers division, 2nd Infantry, the info I had studied was the General that commanded the division was old skool and kept them using 03's long after they could have had Garands because he thought they were better. And they only got Garands once they were in Europe, after that General was replaced. I do believe I got confirmation of this from some of the guys that were in the division in a forum I used to follow about 15 years ago.

Anyways... point being, what you see in the movies and what was typically, was not what happened everywhere. I've perused a LOT of picture books of WWII and there are definitely a variety of weapons used in combat. But yes, some were more rare than others.

[Jack Flash]

Interesting information from DWalt. I used to have a "Guns of the Presidents" NRA calendar that showed two WWI handguns Truman owned. One was an M1917 (can't remember if Colt or S&W) and the other an M1911. Truman had made a single box for both of them. Of course, I don't know if he acquired one or both during or after the war. Being in artillery, if he was armed with an M1917, this supports Muley Gil's point.

Again I have no reference, but I believe that a lot of doughboys actually preferred the M1917 revolvers, since most of them (at least the new recruits) would no doubt have had more experience with revolvers, if they had any handgun experience at all.

About the M1917 rifles ... I have read they actually outnumbered M1903s as issued to the troops. It has even been suggested that Sgt. York was armed with an M1917 rifle, but that can be a subject of hot debate so no need to go there. We are talking about revolvers.

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by Jack Flash

Getting back to WWI, it was my impression that the M1917 revolvers, just like the M1917 rifle, were generally issued as a substitute standard. Of course I may be wrong about this.

Someone once said on this forum that they were also known to have been issued to US WWI fighter pilots. I don't have any references so I hope someone else can speak up.

I don't think officers, inc. pilots, were issued pistols. Sidearms were private property of officers until much later.

Or, so I was told by an elderly former officer who fought in that war. Swords were also purchased. Same as in the British Army, until the 1920 gun law.

My informant carried a Colt 1911 for which he was billed.

The tunnel rat above told a reporter that it was his own M-1917, probably not authorized, but he had it!

Bill Jordan told me that he carried a M-1917 S&W .45 and a Winchester M-12 shotgun when leading Marines in the Pacific, against Japan. Those mirrored what he'd used in the USBP, and he preferred revolvers.

Jeff Cooper began the war with a stag-handled Colt SAA .45, with which he killed a Japanese. But he soon switched to his personal Colt Govt. Model .45, as a more practical sidearm.

Cooper told me that he intended to shoot the Japanese twice, but the first .45 Colt bullet flipped him violently backward as he topped a fallen log and a second shot wasn't needed.

[Texas Star]

My mother had a man in to repair her washing machine about 1959. He'd served in M-4 tanks. Said they all had .45 autos and also had German pistols. They were afraid the Germans would kill them if captured, but wanted the 9mm guns. Most also took them home after the war.

The Sherman tanks (Tommy cookers, to the Germans) also had Thompson SMGs and sometimes, crews added captured MP-40's.

They were called Tommy cookers, as they burned easily if hit by the more powerful German tank guns. Tommy, for Thos. Atkins, was a slang term for British soldiers. I don't know if Germans fighting our troops called them Ami or Yank cookers.

[Kinman]

A friend of my dad's crewed on an M4 Sherman, he once told us that the biggest problem was the converted aircraft radial engine which ran on gasoline, it ran hot and there was no way around it.

[Jack Flash]

Coincidentally, there is an article in the American Rifleman about the M1917 rifle this month. It states that almost 3/4 of the American Doughboys were armed with M1917 rifles. Now back to handguns...

[SFlanigan]

Thanks all for the responses and comments.

I have dated my firearm to 1918 per the serial number. Several of you have asked for pictures. Here are two of the weapon and one of my Grandfather taken, I believe, during WWI.

[SFlanigan]

Being new to the group, my last reply included photos but they did not post. What did I do wrong? I thought I posted correctly.

[THREEDFLYER]

My S&W Model 1917 with serial number 21460 shipped from S&W in March of 1918

[DWalt]

There was some debate in U. S. Army circles about adopting the M1917 Enfield as the standard postwar rifle as there were more of them made than Springfields and experience showed them be fully suitable for combat use. In fact some felt that they were better than the Springfield as the rear peep sight was mounted on the rear receiver bridge, much closer to the eye, vs. the Springfield's barrel-mounted open sight. I have a ca. 1916 Springfield '03 and I can tell you from personal experience that I really can't hit much using that Springfield rear sight. Part of the problem may be my eyes, but to me the Enfield has far better sights, and I would choose it over the Springfield for that reason alone. I had one of those Enfields also, but a long time ago. Further, the Enfield receiver was somewhat heavier and stronger than the Springfield's. Military Enfield actions were prized by gunsmiths for use in building custom magnum-caliber rifles. Some of the post-WWI Remington bolt action hunting rifles used, basically, the Enfield action. Anyway, it seems that the Army let the rifle decision drop after the war and most of the Enfields went into storage.

[KEN L]

Originally Posted by SFlanigan

I own a S&W Model 1917 .45 revolver that used to be my Grandfather's service revolver. The SN starts with 104xxx.

Are there any recommended websites I could visit that may have a database on these serial numbers? I would like to see exactly how old this firearm is, if possible.

I do still shoot it with .45 ACP's when I shoot my S&W .45 M&P Shield. It's amazing how a weapon of it's age, (speaking of the Model 1917) is still spot-on target and fires so beautifully.

Thanks for any help that can be provided, and if anyone is wondering, NO, I am not interested in selling this gun!

Your gun most likely shipped in Aug 1918. We'd love to see some pics if possible. Could you PM me the complete serial number for my database?

[murphydog]

Originally Posted by SFlanigan

Being new to the group, my last reply included photos but they did not post. What did I do wrong? I thought I posted correctly.

Click on Reply on any of your posts, then Manage Attachments. A pop-up window will open.

Click on Choose File and select the photo from your computer hard drive, then click Upload. You can attach up to 5 photos. If each photo is not too large you will see a blue hyperlink underneath showing the photo has loaded. Scroll to the bottom and click Close Window, then Submit Reply on your original reply window, and the photo should appear.

[Jack Flash]

We sure would love to see your photos. Alan gave good directions, but just to be sure, here is my step-by-step guide:

HOW TO POST PICTURES

Easiest Method:
You can attach them directly as "thumbnails".

Start your new post or reopen an old post
Scroll down till you see the "Attach Files" header
Click on the "Manage Attachments" Button
Browse to wherever you have your pictures (usually on your own hard drive)
Select the picture
Click Upload
Repeat till you upload all you want to.

[Jack Flash]

Did anyone see the article on the 10 mm in the American Rifleman? Amazingly, it mentions that the Danish Sirius Dog Sled Patrol (they cover the uninhabited areas of Greenland where disgruntled polar bears and musk oxen can be encountered) carries a Glock 20 10mm as their sidearm. Their primary arm? Can you believe it, the M1917 rifle in its original chambering!

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by Jack Flash

Did anyone see the article on the 10 mm in the American Rifleman? Amazingly, it mentions that the Danish Sirius Dog Sled Patrol (they cover the uninhabited areas of Greenland where disgruntled polar bears and musk oxen can be encountered) carries a Glock 20 10mm as their sidearm. Their primary arm? Can you believe it, the M1917 rifle in its original chambering!

.303 British?

[Muley Gil]

"I don't think officers, inc. pilots, were issued pistols. Sidearms were private property of officers until much later."

I believe that during WW I, handguns were issued to officers. A friend of mine showed me his granddaddy's 1911 Colt. Granddaddy was an Army officer in WW I. He also has the letter where GD bought the 1911 from the Army after the war was over.

Of course, some officers, like George Patton, carried their personal sidearms. I remember reading where he preferred the Single Action Army to his issued 1911 because he had modified the trigger way too light and had the 1911 go off in the holster.

[ABPOS]

A quote from the American Rifleman article about the 1917 rife in WWI. Sorry for the sidetrack, but it came up, so.....

"As the war progressed, the combined output of Model 1917 rifles produced by the three commercial firms greatly exceeded Springfield Armory’s and Rock Island Arsenal’s Model 1903 production. It is estimated that about three-quarters of the AEF was armed with Model 1917 rifles at the time of the Armistice. Ordnance Dept. records indicate 1,123,259 Model 1917 rifles had been shipped to France prior to the cessation of hostilities. The vast majority of these rifles were acquired by the U.S. Army, but limited numbers were also procured by the U.S. Navy and U.S. Marine Corps, although the Model 1903 remained the predominant rifle used by the latter two branches of service. The Model 1917 remained in production until mid-1919, by which time a total of 2,422,529 rifles had been manufactured."

[Kinman]

I think its interesting that the Danes have been using the 30-06 since '53, must be some bad blood between them and the Swedes and the 6.5x55.

[Jack Flash]

Originally Posted by Jack Flash

Did anyone see the article on the 10 mm in the American Rifleman? Amazingly, it mentions that the Danish Sirius Dog Sled Patrol (they cover the uninhabited areas of Greenland where disgruntled polar bears and musk oxen can be encountered) carries a Glock 20 10mm as their sidearm. Their primary arm? Can you believe it, the M1917 rifle in its original chambering!

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

.303 British?

Ok, you got me.

Strictly speaking, however, the Pattern 14 (later Rifle Number 3) was chambered in .303 British. When modified to fire .30-06 and accepted by the US Army, they designated it the Model of 1917.

[DWalt]

As the AR article mentions, the main problem with the M1917 Enfield was the non-interchangeability of some parts between Winchester production and Remington/Eddystone production. That was because Winchester began 1917 production first, before standardization issues among manufacturers had been resolved.

It was very fortunate that American P-14 Enfield rifle production for the British was already underway before the USA entered the conflict so the P-14 could have been easily modified to produce the M1917. Springfield Armory would have never been able to manufacture enough Springfield '03s to meet AEF needs, and they might have needed to use British and/or French rifles. As it was, the AEF was forced to use mainly French machine guns as the USA had essentially none in service prior to the US entry. It wasn't until almost the Armistice that US-made Browning M1917 MGs and BARs landed in quantity on French docks. Even so, very few saw action.

The M1917 rifle I had was a crude sporterization of a service rifle, done mainly by shortening the stock with a saw, and not much else. I bought it for $15 back around the early 1970s. After several years I sold it for about the same amount. Another one I wish I could have kept, as it shot quite well after you got over its looks.

[Jim Watson]

As I understand it, arms production was ramping up enormously in 1918. Nobody really expected the Germans to fold in November, preparations were under way for the Spring Offensive of 1919.
There would have been a lot more BARs and BMGs on the line then.

Not just officers got pistols and revolvers; handguns were just too handy for trench raiding to be left to the brass. Colt and S&W were making lots of revolvers to supplement Colt, Springfield, and Remington-UMC 1911s. Not to mention the contract to North American Arms of Canada but only 100 pistols made before the end of hostilities. There were six other 1911 contractors but nobody got into production except Savage Arms who turned out a fair supply of slides eventually used for repair.

I worked for TVA which, when organized in 1933, picked up US Nitrate Plant No 2 which had been completed shortly AFTER the Armistice and was immediately mothballed. TVA shifted it from explosives to fertilizers as the nucleus of the National Fertilizer Development Center, a lesser known function than dams and power plants.

[Jack Flash]

I have a crudely sporterized M1917 rifle, originally made by Eddystone. I bought it because it was a good deal, and I always intended to replace it with a collector-quality rifle, maybe even one by Winchester. Alas, prices seem to stay just over my personal definition of reasonable.

A couple of things about the Eddystone:
1. The magazine does indeed hold six rounds. That's a 20% increase over the much-vaunted M1903.
2. Its sights are indeed better than the M1903. The M1903A3 negates this advantage, but that improvement didn't arrive till years later.
3. When shooting this rifle, I seem to invariably put the first shot out of a cold barrel dead center on target (a bulls eye with a six o'clock hold). Subsequent shots seem to wander around a little (ok, maybe more than a little), but that first shot really endears it to me. Some day I'll have to take it to a rifle state to hunt with it.
Edited to add:
4. The M1917 rifle doesn't have that ridiculous magazine cut off.

[DWalt]

"Nobody really expected the Germans to fold in November, preparations were under way for the Spring Offensive of 1919."

I suppose most know what the Pedersen Device was. A Top-Secret method to convert the '03 Springfield to a semautomatic rifle firing what was essentially an elongated .32 ACP round from a high-capacity magazine. There were plans to make the PD to fit both the 1917 Enfield and the M91 Moisin-Nagant also, but only a very few of those were made. The whole idea was to arm allied troops with "Assault Rifles" for the big planned "1919 Offensive" which of course never happened. After the Great War, most PDs were destroyed but there are still a few in collector hands and museums. .30 PD ammunition in full boxes is, surprisingly, fairly common (at least among ammo collectors) as very large quantities were loaded in expectation of using the PD-equipped rifles for the 1919 Offensive.

There has been a story that a large number of PDs (maybe all of them) was buried in concrete at the San Antonio Arsenal in the early 1930s. The SA Arsenal has long been closed and is now the headquarters of the large H-E-B supermarket chain, so I doubt if anyone will ever be allowed to discover if that story is true. Most of the PD story is to be found here: American Rifleman | Never In Anger: The Pedersen Device One of the older editions of Gun Digest also carried a feature article about the PD. An upcoming auction of a well-known gun auction house will include a PD. But it will not go cheap.

[ABPOS]

I would imagine that thing would've not had any recoil. Bullet hose.

[DWalt]

The idea was to engage the enemy at long range using the rifle and the standard cartridge, then everyone was to install the PD into their rifles and advance on the enemy using rapid fire at close range. I always wondered how well that plan would have worked. It's probably good that the Armistice deal was struck before there was a chance to find out.

[BC38]

While the PD cartridge ballistics don't compare to the ballistics of the 30-06, 1300fps and 300 ft-lbs ME is nothing to sneeze at. Somewhere between modern 9mm Luger and 9mm Makarov. Better than most sidearms available at the time. I can see the appeal.

[white cloud]

Originally Posted by Kinman

I'm quite certain that many people that were not supposed to carry a particular firearm while serving in a combat area found a way to get their hands on one. I "relocated" a 1911 and its web belt that was carelessly left dangling over the seatback of a jeep by a shavetail lieutenant. Where I was stationed you couldn't leave a reel to reel tapedeck playing and fall asleep without waking up to no music in your headphones, look down and no tape deck. Same with a fan, fall asleep with a fan running, wake up sweating...no fan. I hated the company area, den of thieves, dope fiends and drunks. The first thing I had ripped off was my camo poncho liner, nobody used them as a poncho liner they had jackets made out of them or used them as a blanket when it got chilly in the rainy season.

I assume you are speaking of time spent in Vietnam?

[white cloud]

My maternal grandfather was WW1 infantry and carried an Enfield. He held it in high regard. I wish that I had more time to spend with him before he passed.

[les.b]

Just to help out the OP....here's his photos of his really nice 1917. By the way, Welcome to the forum!! Great way to introduce yourself!!







Best Regards, Les

[SFlanigan]

Thanks all. When I attempt to post a reply (other than 'Quick Reply' I am greeted by two boxes, the 'Reply to Thread' and the 'Additional Options'. Both are blank, (no text boxes shown), dark grey and does not allow any way to type in information or attach photos. I tried in Chrome, Firefox and in Edge, (formally I.E.) with the same results.

[Texas Star]

Doesn't the M1917 bolt cock on closing? Some felt that was a disadvantage. I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I think all sporting rifle bolts cock on opening.

[Wiregrassguy]

Originally Posted by SFlanigan

Thanks all. When I attempt to post a reply (other than 'Quick Reply' I am greeted by two boxes, the 'Reply to Thread' and the 'Additional Options'. Both are blank, (no text boxes shown), dark grey and does not allow any way to type in information or attach photos. I tried in Chrome, Firefox and in Edge, (formally I.E.) with the same results.

You need to scroll to the right to see the editor. Something has happened to the forum software and it is not centering the text box in your browser window. To scroll over, look below the blank window for the right/left scroll bar and drag it to the right until you see the editor.

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by Texas Star

Doesn't the M1917 bolt cock on closing? Some felt that was a disadvantage. I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I think all sporting rifle bolts cock on opening.

Yes, it does. Most modern sporting bolt actions cock on opening. After WW I, Remington built hunting rifles based on the 1917 action. I have read about a custom rifle builder who uses 1917 actions for very large caliber cartridges.

The British Short Model Lee Enfield (SMLE) also cocks on closing and many folks felt that the SMLE was the fastest operating bolt action.

[KEN L]

Originally Posted by les.b

Just to help out the OP....here's his photos of his really nice 1917. By the way, Welcome to the forum!! Great way to introduce yourself!!







Best Regards, Les

You tried Les, you tried!

[DWalt]

"The British Short Model Lee Enfield (SMLE) also cocks on closing and many folks felt that the SMLE was the fastest operating bolt action."

Part of the British infantry doctrine back then was the "Mad Minute" and it was practiced frequently by the Tommies. Basically, it involved everyone in the squad, company, etc. opening up, firing their SMLEs as rapidly as possible at the enemy. The British felt that the cock-on-closing bolt action was a better design for facilitating rapid fire and I can see that it probably was. Many may not be aware that the SMLE's detachable magazine very rarely left the rifle. It was loaded in the rifle by using stripper clips.

[Jim Watson]

The 1917 Enfield held six .30 because its magazine was originally designed to hold five near-magnum .280 in 1913. Since the standard stripper clip held five for a Springfield, if you wanted to make use of that extra round of capacity, you would have had to have some loose ammo in your pocket.

Lacking a cutoff, the troops soon found that they could wedge the follower down with a penny and execute the drill field manual of arms smoothly. Lots of '17 and Mauser sporters had the rear of the follower beveled so you could close the bolt on an empty without manipulation.

[Kinman]

Originally Posted by white cloud

I assume you are speaking of time spent in Vietnam?

Yessir...70-71