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Old 08-02-2018, 12:16 AM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
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Default Which "change" is this??***MORE PICS & INFO!!!***

I won an auction for this 4" .38 Special today. Which engineering "change" does this fall under?

Thanks!
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Old 08-02-2018, 12:24 AM
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Itís a .38 M&P Model 1902 from before about 1909/10 or so when the barrel inscription changed and the US SERVICE CTG was dropped, so it could be any up to a 3rd Change. For more specificity, the serial is needed.
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Old 08-02-2018, 01:40 AM
rct269 rct269 is offline
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Given that it's a Model of 1902, the presence of the "flared tapered" barrel, says it's a 1st Change---the only "Change" there was. And it's a 1902 if it's a 4 screw frame. Otherwise (if it's a 5 screw), it's a Model of 1905 or a 1905 1st Change (the dual caliber marking being gone for good in the 2nd Change which came about in 1909).

And Absalom is right, for more "specificity" (great word, that) the serial number is needed---but of course you already know that--just like you already know about the screw count. And given you already know these things, one has to wonder why we're obliged to be talking about them-------Hmmmmmmmm??

Ralph Tremaine

Sitting and staring (INTENTLY) at the photos, I'm inclined to say it's a 5 screw frame--but I'm not inclined to bet much more than maybe a nickel on it.

Last edited by rct269; 08-02-2018 at 02:03 AM.
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Old 08-02-2018, 08:21 AM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
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More Pics......
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Old 08-02-2018, 08:46 AM
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I'm with Ralph - I'm fairly certain I can see the fifth screw in your first pictures. The new pics are not particularly helpful in this regard, except for showing the serial number, sort of. I'm having trouble making it out, but if the first two digits are 99, it was made after 1906 (so-called "1st Change," maybe "2d Change").

The rebound pin is at the rear of the frame. IIRC that would suggest 1st Change, but I can't remember for sure.

As to whether it should be called a Model of 1902 or 1905, that entirely depends on your philosophy of nomenclature. Both camps are adequately represented in the collecting fraternity. I refuse to debate it, since the proponents of both sides are well entrenched, and both can put forward reasonable arguments. It is a Military & Police revolver with a round butt, and by 1915-16 that is what the factory was calling them. The 1902, 1905 nomenclature by that time was archaic.
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP@AK View Post
...... I'm having trouble making it out, but if the first two digits are 99, it was made after 1906 (so-called "1st Change," maybe "2d Change").

The rebound pin is at the rear of the frame. IIRC that would suggest 1st Change, but I can't remember for sure.

As to whether it should be called a Model of 1902 or 1905, that entirely depends on your philosophy of nomenclature. Both camps are adequately represented in the collecting fraternity. I refuse to debate it, since the proponents of both sides are well entrenched, and both can put forward reasonable arguments. It is a Military & Police revolver with a round butt, and by 1915-16 that is what the factory was calling them. The 1902, 1905 nomenclature by that time was archaic.
I also think the first two digits are 99, so this is the right placement.

As for the nomenclature, as Jack says, collector arguments are well-entrenched, so when available as in this case, I stick with the historical record and ignore collectors

There is no doubt that this gun was sold as a .38 Military & Police Model 1902 any time before 1910. So thatís what it is.

(Abercrombie & Fitch catalog 1910)
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Old 08-02-2018, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
As for the nomenclature, as Jack says, collector arguments are well-entrenched, so when available as in this case, I stick with the historical record and ignore collectors


I refuse to debate it, as noted above. That doesn't keep me from having an opinion. My opinion is the Model 1902 had a round butt; the 1905, a square butt. Clearly, others, religiously following Roper, disagree. Okay. They can disagree. I won't argue.
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Old 08-02-2018, 05:38 PM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
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I had no idea that my little six gun could cause such a dust up!!
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Old 08-02-2018, 08:01 PM
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... are we sure it is not just a plain old "Pre-Model 10" made shortly after the turn of the century??
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Old 08-02-2018, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKmesa View Post
... are we sure it is not just a plain old "Pre-Model 10" made shortly after the turn of the century??
Donít do that!

You canít start talking about the Bermuda Triangle when weíre still discussing whether that was a Sasquatch on the Grassy Knoll.
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Old 08-02-2018, 11:16 PM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKmesa View Post
... are we sure it is not just a plain old "Pre-Model 10" made shortly after the turn of the century??
I'm sure. A pre Model 10 would be post WW II and have the new short action.
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Old 08-03-2018, 12:09 AM
rct269 rct269 is offline
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I too am aware of the respective positions---at least about what's what---not too sure about the why what's what. And I too avoid arguments about it. And I too have an opinion: Mine relates to the action---'cause I figure the action's more important than the butt. And if it isn't more important, it's at least more complicated.

And finally, I go with what the letter says. I figured that was rock solid---right up until Jinks told me the letter could and would say whatever I wanted it to say (about what to call it). That was his way of not arguing about it---so don't let anybody wave their letters in your face----unless you're just in need of a little cooling breeze.

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:36 PM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
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Serial # is 99712. It has a very smooth action and crisp trigger pull. I also found a police evidence room number etched on the right side. Both stock panels have initials carved on the inside. Left- HBW Right - HD


A little Flitz and elbow grease later........
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