Just a question concerning the Victory Model history. I've only seen it designated as a Victory or Pre Victory revolver but did it have another military model designation? The Model 1911, two Model 1917 revolvers and the M-1 Rifle and M-1 Carbine had model numbers based on the year adopted or later the numerical order in which they were adopted, ie, M-1 Rifle and M-2 Carbine etc. Did the Victory Model have an "M" number designation? Made a short search this morning and did not find one.

S&W Model of 1905.

I don’t really think anyone used the “Model of 1905” at that time anymore. It’s just as a collector definition that we use it into the 1940s. The first S&W catalogs post-WW I no longer used it.

In all documentation of the time I have come across, it was simply the .38 M&P. And in many cases of military use, it actually was referred to just as the .38 revolver, and it isn’t even clear whether the reference is to a S&W or Colt. It’s uncommon to encounter memoirs or other accounts by contemporaries that show awareness that there were more than one type of .38 revolver.

If there was a military designation for the M&P revolvers used during WW II I have never heard it.

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No life story has happy end.

Yeah, but I think there was. I've seen .38 Colts in movies (documentaries) and pics before. I do believe they used a snubby Colt .38. It had the older style grip of course. Bigger than the Detecive Specials. D frame. I also think there were 4" "Commandos"...... I think?



This was an excellent question. Thank you for asking it OP. I never really thought about what they called it back then.....

Interesting pic in my search:

Yes, that’s exactly what I was talking about. Most authors including memoir-writing veterans often don’t show awareness or interest in the difference, though.

Probability usually favors a .38 revolver mentioned being a Victory; there were hundreds of thousands made compared to a little over 50,000 Commandos. And there was relatively little overlap in documented military destinations. The Maritime Commission got both. Of course, for DSC guns it could be either or both; that may have gone by what was available. I know of a police department that got both within a few months in 1945.

The S&W "Victory" model, apart from cosmetics, is identical to the pre-war .38 Military and Police Model, that is until the addition of the improved hammer drop safety adopted in early 1945. Few, if any, of its users during WWII called it the "Victory" model, and it was never an official name. The official nomenclature used by the British military for those made in .38 S&W is the "Pistol, Revolver, Smith and Wesson, No. 2" but I doubt that any of the British troops called it that.

The WWII Colt "Commando" was an I-frame (which is slightly larger than the S&W K-frame), and like the "Victory" model, the Colt Commando was identical to the pre-war Colt Official Police revolver, cosmetics aside.

But weren't pre war mostly 5"ers? I know some Victory's were 5 but wasn't 4" more common. And of course blued vs parked. And then the lanyard loop.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just understanding what exactly the differences are. So there was no drop safe before 1945? Does that mean it could go off with a round in the cylinder at the top if the hammer was struck? ??? Did they not keep a round in that cylinder?

Your right as usual. I looked at my last DD-214 dated 1/88 and under qualifications it listed .38 caliber revolver along with .45 caliber pistol/.22caliber pistol/M14 rifle/M16 rifle. Only the rifles were listed by model number.

There was likely an armorer's or operations manual. What was it called there?

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Did you actually qualify with a .38 revolver?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Sure did but not Victory's as I recall, 4" M10's. They were still in the armory when I retired. The Beretta hadn't trickled down to the Navy so never got to qualify with it which was no great loss

I carried a Beretta for 5 years while working in Afghanistan and Kosovo. I never liked the feel of one, but I shot 100% on quals with it. Go figure.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

That is so cool. Thank you for serving and I'm glad you got to shoot some revolvers on Uncle Sam's dime.

So the definite word is that ... there is no definite word

I leafed through Charles Pate’s book. The only thing that seems clear from perusing the signficant number of ordnance memos and other military documents is that nobody back then except one factory marketing flyer for the DSC called it “Victory”.

Depending on the scope of the matter at hand, it’s “Revolver, Cal. .38”, “Revolver, Cal. .38 Special” (both applied to the Navy’s .38 Special version), and in the memos regarding the 1944 hammer block, it’s the “Revolver, Cal. .38 Special, Smith & Wesson” or some variation, sometimes including the Military & Police designation.

I pulled up some 1940's military manuals and it's called as Absalom notes above "Revolver, Caliber .38" and sometimes "Pistol, Caliber .38." They didn't add "Special", "Smith & Wesson," or "Military & Police" until after the war was over...or I couldn't find manuals during the war that used those terms. Here's an example from Army Field Manual 23-35, 1988:

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Rugers in 1946??

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Yeah, the manual says 1946 but I suspect this is a later revision or whoever created the PDF slapped an old cover on it.


My bad, I downloaded the 1988 version. Thought I got the '46. Terminology hadn't changed.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

As of 1945, the United States Navy's Bureau of Ordnance (BuOrd) referred to the 4 inch barreled, .38 Special S&W revolver we know as the "Victory Model" as the "Cal. .38 Special Smith & Wesson Military and Police Revolver".

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

I woke up this morning and for some reason that question concerning the military designation of the Victory revolver was on my mind. I would have expected it to have been something like M-1 for the Pre Victory and "V" series revolvers and M-2 for the VS serial numbered ones. At least I know it was not my search that was faulty. I will continue the search a bit longer.

Thanks to everyone who responded.

Also, in response to CHIEFDAVE's identification of it as a Model 1905, at least as early as 1936 when the M-1 Rifle was adopted, the year of adoption was not used as the model number. It would have been an M-1, or 2, or 3 etc. As far as I know no sidearms were adopted between the 1917 Colt and S & W revolvers and the Victory.

Mr. Pate's book is most authoritative imo. S&W was making the "38-200s" for the British as WW2 began in 1939. The revolvers were regular M&P (Model 1905-4th Change) numbered in the commercial series. Apparently the s/n stamping machinery was limited to six digits, so something had to be done when the number reached 999,999 (it's in the books but I don't recall the exact month & year.) There was NO s/n # 1,000,000. It had taken roughly 40 + years from 1899 to make that many K-frame 38s.

S&W's solution was to add the V prefix & begin numbering from 1 again. The "V" was likely adopted from Winston Churchill's famous hand gesture; the "V for Victory" symbol was also widely used in the USA in various ways after 12-7-41 as well. (V-mail for letters to our overseas troops, etc.) Approximately the first 40,000 Victory models were built for the British with 5" barrels before .38 Specials began production (most with 4' barrels for US use). Thereafter, Victories were made in both calibers with serial number blocks assigned to meet ontracts requirements.

The Colt "Commando" was a Colt factory name for the Parkerized Official Police 4" bbl revolver made for the Gov't. There were no official US Gov't Model Numbers for revolvers OTHER THAN the M1917 .45 cal. guns made by Colt (New Service frame) and S&W (N frame). BOTH Colt & S&W were designated M1917 even though they did not look alike & parts were not interchangeable between the two brands.

Was the “Officers” Victory Model an official designation ?

Those were a different story. They were procured for the Marine Corps in the early 1950s and had serials in the C-prefix range. I must admit I don’t know that much about them. But there are members here who have one and have shared letters.

PS: I just found an old thread where Kevin (kwill1911) states that the USMC Technical Manual actually called them “Victory Officer’s Model”. So that would mean that ironically the only Victory model ever officially called a Victory model wasn’t a real Victory model because it did not have the V-prefix

USMC "Victory Officer's Model"

Thinking back on the military arms I've held (M1903 Springfield, M1911 pistol, M1917 S & W, M1 rifle and carbine, and up to the current M9 Beretta) they all had their model number marked on them. If the Victory had a M number I guess it would have been so marked but I don't remember ever seeing one. I wonder if the number assignment just fell through the cracks due to wartime requirements.

Thanks to everyone for their responses.

I see this kind of question a lot, not necessarily around this forum but everywhere. The earlier versions did have a hammer block safety, it was just a different type that was staked into the side plate and sprung so that it would move into place when able. If the revolver was allowed to get gunked up inside, then the block could be prevented from moving into place. The later versions were the same type as currently in use, moved into place by the action of the rebound slide. I spoze the innards could get so nasty that the rebound slide no longer slud, but I imagine by then the whole gun would be rusted shut.

It was not common to leave an empty chamber under the hammer, but I suppose there might've been a few old cowboys that did so out of habit and distrust of the new-fangled trigger-cocking wheelguns.


Never carried one in harm's way, but I have the same love/hate relationship with the 92 et al. I hate the trigger, hate the safety, nothing fits my hand and it's uncomfortable (and I think it's Jack Elam ugly), but I could shoot it like a house afire. An evergreen topic in the firearm world is the "difficult to master" DA/SA transition, but the first time I shot a borrowed 92 in a 3-Gun match the first two shots went into the same hole, granted it was only at 3 yards or so. (And yes, even as I was stepping out of the box on the run to the next position I thought to myself "I've GOT to speed up!") Six inch plates at 25 went down like a fat kid on a see-saw.

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TEAM DNF

At one time I had the complete official Army transcript of the testing performed which led to the adoption of the M9. Anyone reading it would gain great respect for any gun which could make it through all that torture testing. Being extremely familiar with the M9, I consider it to be the most rugged and most suitable handgun design ever developed for military combat service (with the exception of its 9mm caliber). And that comparison includes the M1911 and the Glock. The M11 (aka Sig P228) isn't in the same league. But it was never intended to be a combat weapon as the M9 was.

I have 2 M9's and they are accurate. I like shooting mine. I like the double action first shot. It makes me feel like I'm shooting a revolver. At least for the first shot. LOL.

I won't say it's the most accurate pistol I ever fired. But they do very well. And I never had a malf in about 4k rounds.

My son has taken to the M9......

I prefer revolvers at this point in my life. For what I do.

"And I never had a malf in about 4k rounds."

I was a police advisor in Kosovo. The American officers held a familarization and I was one of the firearms instructors. During the course of fire, we found out real quick that dry Berettas malfunction. Midway through the first day, it was so common that all the instructors kept bottles of oil on them.

We gave a short safety talk and volunteered to oil any handgun that might need it. Just about every session, we had an officer or two that insisted his Beretta "clean, oiled and good to go". When that one or two jammed, we oiled them up, while our eyeballs were rolling back in our heads.

Some cops treat their guns like a carpenter treats his hammer; it's just a tool, though most carpenters treat their tools better!

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Not that I’d ever complain about thread drift ...

But getting back to the Victory, were you the one who talked about encountering officers from some former outpost of the British Empire who were still carrying Victory BSR’s?

Yep, that was me. The Kosovo police mission was under the UN and there were 53 nations that sent police officers to the country. I met a number of officers from all over the world. While most carried some sort of 9mm semi, there were several that carried revolvers. The Fiji Islands police had 5" S&Ws chambered in .38 S&W aka British Service Revolvers. I handled one once, but didn't know enough at the time to look at the markings.

One of the African countries armed their officers with Model 10s, loaded with aluminum Blazer .38 special ammo! And I talked to a Greek Army officer who was carrying a Colt 1911 from about 1914.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I agree that it's rare to find a war book written by a vet that describes handguns well.

A book on the WW II SAS by a woman author refers to "Smith & Weston" revolvers. Either the soldier she quoted messed up or she heard the name wrong. An ill. in her book clearly showed a five-inch Victory Model .38-200.

One officer with Wingate's Chindits wrote, "The Hundred Days of Lt. MacHorton." He was cut off by Japanese while in Burma, wounded, and had a rough time reaching British lines in India. He had a Thompson SMG, called such, but it was too heavy for him in his condition, so he left it behind. That left him with a Colt .38 (Official Police), presumably in .38-200 caliber and a Gurkha knife/Khukuri.

I found a reference by a British officer in North Africa who said that he and another officer cocked their .38's before sneaking out to see what was making a suspicious noise at night, so we at least know they didn't have the DA-only form of the Enfield .38. No other clue to make or model.

A South African member of the Royal Tank Corps in N. Africa wrote, "The Brazen Chariots." Major Robt. Crisp, DSO, etc. Crisp had been a champion cricket player before the war and was later a newsman back in South Africa. He referred a few times to his .38, which he definitely fired in battle, but no brand name.

A member of Parliament who was an intelligence officer liked his .38, but again, no brand. He was always short of ammo, as they generally got just 12 rounds for revolvers, except perhaps in paratroop and commando and other spec ops units. His general, who had a pistol of another kind (not stated) gave him his .38 ammo ration before one battle.

This stuff is typical, although if a US soldier referred to his .45, it was normally a Colt automatic. Or the same, by another wartime contractor. The exception to this scarcity of info was Donald R. Burgett, who covered his personal arms well in his three or so books about his time with the 101st Airborne from Normandy, throughout the remainder of the war. He had a nickle-plated .45 auto sent by his father, a captured P-38, and favored the M-1 Garand over the carbine or tommy gun. You can see him in a YouTube video, praising the Garand.

By looking at wartime photos, you can learn a lot about who carried what. And it wasn't always what would be expected. JFK carried a Victory Model S&W .38 while commanding P T-109, so despite the naval statement in a post above, the Victory Model was NOT always limited to aircrew use. Coast Guardsmen had them, and probably Shore Patrolmen in the Navy. Those belt holsters made for them weren't mainly used by airmen, although some were. I saw a pic of an Avenger crew. The pilot had a shoulder holster and his enlisted crewmen had belt holsters.
Other Navy pilots had .45 autos. Ditto for Marine aircrew. I doubt that many .38's reached the fleet until after Midway. (June, 1942) Old National Geographic and other period magazines with many photos show who was carrying what.

And some had private guns. In, Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo, Cpt. Ted Lawson said that he and his crew of B-25 Tokyo raiders all had both US and private pistols and knives. He had his .45 and his wife's Colt .32 auto. One air commander in Burma insisted that his enlisted bomber crews have sidearms, although enlisted Army airmen normally weren't issued sidearms. He said they needed them for better morale, flying over jungles. He got them those guns!

To continue, by 1960 or so, many USN Victory Models were transferred to USAF use. I often carried one, or a .45 auto, as we were short of the official .38, the S&W Model 15 Combat Masterpiece. For some years, those went to SE Asia or to SAC before trickling down to other commands. I worked with an OSI agent in late May, 1963 and he had a four-inch Model 15. I was still wearing an ex-Navy Victory Model, but the older guns were still in nice condition, and we had a few Colts, two being commercial Official Police versions. I think those also came from USN stores, being of the type made back then. Postwar OP's had different front sights.

Our .45 autos were also in good shape. Maybe I was just lucky in the bases where I was stationed, but I never saw those worn out, much rebuilt ones that I've read about.

BTW, I seldom wore an official holster. My bosses didn't seem to care or even notice holsters, so I bought my own. Some airmen who'd been in Vietnam had Western style Buscadero rigs, some in patent leather.

One of the officers in my unit wore a Colt .38 snub with hammer shroud, and another bought his own K-38/M-14.

I hope this helps identify who had which military handguns.

I suppose you know the pic of those women opening boxes of just-arrived Victory Model .38's are British? They got WELL over 568,000 of them!

You noted snub Colt .38's, Detective Special models, some with square butts. Eisenhower had one, and Patton, another. I saw one photo of CIC agents examining German documents, and they had those, too. They were normal issue for CIC and CID agents.

Snub versions of the M&P were made, but most seem to have gone to the FBI. In later years, various commercial J and K frame snub S&W's were used by several military forces. USAF missile crews often wore those. They were also seen among B-52 crews.

568,000 for England explains a lot. The guns marked for the English and Canadians are so very common. Plus, so many got sent back US and messed with. I quit buying the nicer ones a couple of years ago. On the other hand, the ones used by the USA in 38 Special are few and far between, and have been for many years. Picked up a 95% Navy marked one a year ago and was so pleased to get my hands on it.

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Dr. B

I frequent 1 more gun website regularly and I started a thread there, twice now, of pics of revolvers in combat. I'm pretty sure the stateside Army guys that protected the rail roads had victory's. I'll see if I can post a pic.

As far as GI's calling them what, I think you're spot on. If you go by what all the other guns are named, you'd probably say: Revolver, caliber .38. But usually they had an M number as someone pointed out. Didn't it go like, Rifle, M-1, Caliber .30. But then again I can't remember if or how they made the distinction between the Carbine and Garand. The bolt guns obviously had their own name. Rifle, M1903, caliber .30. Etc etc. I'm not sure if I'm saying that all properly. But it's something like that.

Eugene Sledge's book "With the Old Breed", did well to call out his handgun. But his Dad gave it to him before he left. His Dad was an officer in WWI. A doctor. So his gun was personally owned or somehow in his possession. But they called it what it was. A 1917 .45 caliber revolver. I don't remember the exact exact words but they had 1917 in there. The movie The Pacific, was accurate in showing it. He did also carry a Carbine at one point, along with his 1917. But later I he said he got rid of all that and just carried a 1911. I'm not sure what happened to his Dad's gun at that point.

Maybe those are 1917's though....:








And as far as the Navy goes, I swear I saw a caption or someone saying these were Colt, but to me they look like Smiths. It is a little hard to tell.

The Army officers in your pics have Colt M-1917 .45's and the sailors have Victory Model S&W's.

Look at the butt shape on the Colts and the front extractor rod locks on the Smiths. I have a very good eye for this, and the second handgun I owned was a Colt M-1917. I've also owned a commercial one, a New Service in .45 Colt, made about 1935.

The .38's do not have Model numbers because they were never formally adopted as a Model.

Now, figure this out: In snub form, the USAF called the Model 15 S&W the Model 56, an AF term. But the same basic gun with four-inch barrel, issued in greater numbers, had no Model number. We just called them Combat Masterpieces or Model 15's, the S&W terms.

As for Pacific Islands use, Bill Jordan, the famed Border Patrolman, told me he carried a S&W M-1917 and a Winchester M-12 shotgun. These were weapons he knew well as a Border Patrolman before he became a Marine officer. He commanded squads of men mopping up Japanese positions that had been bypassed by main infantry drives, but which had to be cleaned out. It was very dangerous work.

Another gun writer, Jeff Cooper, started out wearing a Colt SAA .45 with custom King sights and stag grips. It had a 5.5 inch barrel. He shot one Japanese coming over a log at him, bayonet poised. Jeff fired once and the impact flipped the man backward, dead. He told me he'd meant to fire twice, but the first shot was so effective there was no need.

He soon realized that the SAA was so slow to reload in battle that he sent it home and carried his Colt .45 auto. It was a commercial gun, with custom grips by, I think, Walter Roper. Photos of both guns were in his early books and articles. I have a letter which described two other pistol shootings in his Marine career, but both were postwar. Both involved his beloved .45 auto.

I'm sure another reason he preferred the auto was that he could get free ammo for it. He had to provide his own .45 Colt ammo for the old Peacemaker.

Jeff said he and other Americans used pistols to shoot fruit bats out of trees. They traded them to natives for lobsters, which the islanders caught on the reefs at night. Cooper was an epicurean diner whose dad was president of a San Francisco wine and food society. He probably relished the lobster dinners. I imagine the Navy cooks did well with them.

I thought those Navy guys had Smiths. The little bump before the extractor rod and the front sight made me think so. And just the overall profile of the gun.

I guess I stand corrected about the Train guys. 1917's.... I couldn't tell for sure. I thought the holster should be the giveaway, but I really don't know what holsters there were for the victory. The Navy Pilots look like they've got Victory's in a 1911 shoulder holster... Possibly? You could correct me on that one too if I'm off. Would be good to know. They almost look like they were made for victories though. They go kind of high for the butt and I wouldn't think the cylinder would fit in one made for a 1911....



I think John Wayne had a 1917 in a chest holster in that one movie where he was a Marine Pilot. Was that Hellcats of the Navy? No, Flying Leathernecks I think. I might have to watch it again to see. LOL.

Three of the guys shown above have cartridge loops sewn onto their holster straps. The guy on the far right's strap has no loops. They were usually made of canvas and added by the ship's rigger. At least for the naval aviation crews, they always carried some .38 Special red tracer rounds for emergency signaling use.

Yeah, looks like the tall guy on the left is ready for some action...... meaning he seems to have more rounds than others. LOL.

Using WW1 M1911 lanyards too ......

If you saw this photo where I did, you remember correctly. I recall a discussion of the article where this photo was used on the Colt forum.

The article, mostly a summary of Pate's facts, was about the Colt Commando, but not a single historical photo, of which there were four or five, showed a Commando; all that were identifiable were Victorys or 1917's.

ABPOS-

I think you've shown an Avenger crew. The tall guy is probably the pilot and others his enlisted men: gunners and a radio man.

The loops for ammo go over each man's shoulder, so we don't know how many rounds each had. The longer the shoulder loop was set for a man, the more loops the ship's rigger could sew on. A tall man could wear more ammo that way.

Navy shoulder holsters for .38's look a lot like those for .45 autos, but are shaped/sized for the revolvers. I've seen them on Naval aircrew in the 1960's. Same rigs as were used in WWII.

M-1917 holsters from WWI carried the gun butt forward The same holsters fit both Colt and S&W .45 revolvers. Some with a butt rearward design were made in WWII, but a great many were re-issued from stocks in storage after WWI. Normally, .45 revolvers were issued to MP's, and to rear area support personnel, freeing more .45 autos for front line infantry, armor, and air crews.

In the UK and Commonwealth, Pattern 1937 webbing holsters were different for those meant to carry Webley MK VI .455's and those for .38's. All makes of .38 Colt, S&W, and Enfield, and Webley fit the same holster. Colt .45 autos seem to have used the same holster as the .38's, or maybe they made that style for the big autos. Sir Sean Connery played a paratroop general in, A Bridge Too Far and you can see that holster used with his Colt .45 auto. The real general whom he portrayed had a closed flap on his holster in the few pictures I've seen, so we don't know which pistol he carried. But many British commando and paratroop units did have .45 autos. The RAF retained some WWI Colt autos in the distinct .455 Eley auto caliber. These were called in by 1942 and distributed exclusively to Air Rescue units. (Coastal Command) That got the odd ammo into one command and also gave the men a better fighting pistol than a .38-200 revolver. Because their seaplanes were rescuing armed German crews who'd crashed in the Channel, they were especially likely to need their sidearms.

I hope you enjoy having this knowledge.

OPOS

" The RAF retained some Colt autos in the distinct .455 Eley auto caliber. These were called in by 1942 and distributed exclusively to Air Rescue units. That got the odd ammo into one command and also gave the men a better fighting pistol than a .38-200 revolver."

I have one of the WWI Colt M1911s originally made for the British .455 auto cartridge. Slide is stamped "CALIBRE .455" and has the crossed pennants stamp. Except mine has a .45 ACP barrel. I think there is a slight modification to the slide required to make that barrel swap work, also I think (but do not know) that the .45 ACP and .455 magazines are different. I remember reading in Hatcher's Notebook that .45 ACP ammo works OK in the .455 M1911s, but as mine has only the .45 ACP barrel, I have not verified the truthfulness of Hatcher's statement.

Texas:

One important pistol needs to be added to your comprehensive overview:

Starting in mid-1944, the British and Canadians, particularly for special forces like paratroops and commandos, had significant numbers of the Inglis-Browning Hi-Power in use, by war’s end quite a few more than of the Colt .45.