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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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  #51  
Old 09-02-2018, 01:46 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
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Waveski

A model of 1902 has a round butt. A model of 1905 has a square butt. THAT is the definitive difference.

At serial number 73251, the trigger rebound slide was introduced, replacing the earlier separate frame leaf spring design. The engineering change affects both round butt and square butt models. All square butt models from 58000 to 73251 have the multiple spring configuration, as do all the round butt models.

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Old 09-02-2018, 03:34 PM
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That's good enough for me. Thank you.
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Old 09-02-2018, 04:21 PM
jw mathews jw mathews is offline
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Mr. Priwer and I debated this point five years ago when I made a post titled "1902 Square Butt--How Rare?" which you can find via a search in this section of the forum. Mr. Priiwer adheres to old catalog descriptions. which imo are not sufficiently accurate for collecting purposes. The books on S&W by factory historian Roy Jinks and collector Bob Neal as well as the SCSW state that the square butt K-frame .38 S[ecial was introduced at s/n 58000 in November 1904. The internal mechanism on those early square butts is the same as on the round butts made at that time (1902 model, First Change).

The 1905 models, introduced n the spring of that year, added the screw in front of the triggerguard retaining a spring & plunger for the cylinder stop. Both round & square butt models received this design change beginning with s/n 62450. THEREFORE, it seems to me that guns with serials between 58000 and 62449 are 1902 (First Change) models, REGARDLESS of butt configuration. NOTE that the 1905 models and all prior M&Ps had the two leaf springs in the front strap with two screwheads visible. The bottom screw tensions the mainspring for the hammer. The upper screw is for the short leaf spring which is the trigger return spring.

Mr. Priwer correctly notes the rebound slide was introduced at s/n 73251 for BOTH r & s frames, and the 73000-odd .38 specials made between 1906-09 are corretly termed 1905 First Change guns. That change eliminated the short leaf spring and upper screw in the front strap. If these changes had occurred after 1957 the models would be identified by dash numbers, but those were not in use during the first half of the 20th Century. There was also an overlap of serials between the First & Second Change 1905 models ending at s/n 146890.

It is interesting to speculate how things might have been done pre-1957 had the factory been interested in better identification. What were called "Models" (Model Years) might have been better termed "engineering changes." But we cannot rewrite history. The factory letter on the preceding page about the engraved revolver describes it as a "1902 First Change" even though it has a square butt frame. I think Roy Jinks' description is most accurate, and if he can describe a particular square butt gun as a 1902 Model, I think the rest of us ought to be able to do the same! What say Mr. Priwer & others?

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  #54  
Old 09-02-2018, 08:54 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
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JW

The square-butt k-frames from 58000 to 62450 all are 4-screw frames. The following picture is a special drawer in my gun cabinets, and it contains only 4-screw 1902 and 1905 revolvers.



Starting from the left, the first four are pre-58000, and the last five are 58000 to 62450. The one with the pearl grips is a 5" 1902 target, about s/n 58700 or so. The next four are square butts: one is a 4" M&P, and the other three are targets.

They are all four-screw frames, meaning they have the two flat springs visible under the grips.

" The 1905 models, introduced n the spring of that year, added the screw in front
of the triggerguard retaining a spring & plunger for the cylinder stop."

If the above statement (of yours) is suggesting that the introductory 1905's ( 58000 to 62450) were 5-screw frame, you are wrong. Everything from 58000 to 62450 is a 4-screw frame. More clearly put, everything from s/n 1 to s/n 62450 is a 4-screw frame. This, of course, includes the 1899's, 1902's, and 1905's . This is because these three models are all intermingled in the same serial number series.

While there is a rational for the historians statements about these guns, the simple fact is that (1) the model of 1905 was introduced at 58000, and (2) everything from 1 to 62450 is a four-screw gun, and (3) a 1905 has a square butt and a 1902 has a round butt. You can't argue about this. It is what it is.

As to model vs engineering changes, the factory never confuses the two. They do, from time to time, change the name of a model, but they never talk about engineering changes in any of their advertising literature; only models. Engineering changes are internal matters. Until, of course, after the assignment of model numbers.

The historian, somewhat like you, finds themselves between a rock and a hard place, when it comes to reconciling Neal and Jinks with the messy situation of multiple models in one serial number series. The 1905 (as a new model) is introduced at the point which N&J call a 1902 1st change. AT 58000, this new model is simply a 1905, but is also identical in all engineering respects to a 1902 (which N&J wants to call a 1902 1st change.

What is N&J to do ?

N&J delays the recognition of the new 1905, until 62450. This is why, sometimes but not always, a gun like Lee's will letter as a 1902 1st change. On other occasions, like my guns, they letter as an early 1905. N&J goes further, making a tacit assumption that the model of 1902 no longer exists after this point. This is why most, but not all, subsequent round-butts letter as 1905's . Other similar guns are known to letter as late 1902's - which, of course, they are not (late).

According to the historian, N&J's notions of engineering changes (note engineering changes) comes from some early work of Walter Roper, when he was in charge of the service department. The department needed a list, by serial number ranges, of where to find spare parts for guns as they came in. In this context, and because there is only one serial number series to worry about, N&J makes perfect sense. In the service department world, the model names are not relevant; only the serial number. Calling everything after 62450 a 1905 works perfectly well. They didn't have to write any letters with model descriptions. Just get the serial number, and go to the right parts bin.

I'm of the view that collectors want to know what gun thy have - particularly those who are new to S&W collecting. Its never going to be easy to reconcile a gun like Lee's with N&J. 58000 was the introduction of the model of 1905 -- not the 1905 1st change. Its first engineering change comes at 62450, which just happens to be the 2nd engineering change to the model of 1902. It just is. And yet the guns are always, engineering-wise, identical. How can that be explained to anyone ?!

Another way of thinking about all of this is -- If N&J waits until 62450 to recognize the model of 1905, then of course its going to have problems correctly naming a square butt with a serial number earlier than 62450. Likewise, if N&J does away with the 1902 designation after 62450, then of course its gong to have problems correctly naming a round butt with a serial number after 62450.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Last edited by mikepriwer; 09-03-2018 at 02:33 AM. Reason: revisions after further thought
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Old 09-03-2018, 01:19 PM
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Shabby nickel in the extreme, but surprisingly serial No. 50587 has a really nice bore and fine mechanics. Just posting it because it needs Forum thread love too.

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Old 09-03-2018, 03:54 PM
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Bruce

That's a gun that one might consider for re-plating. The nice thing about re-plating is that it always comes out the right color, and is reasonably hard to spot if its done correctly, as Ford's does. Also, the hammer, trigger, and extractor nob look to be in good condition, and so would not need to be re-case-colored.

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Old 09-03-2018, 05:45 PM
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OOOooo... handn't really thought of rehab'ing the old thing.

Oh and name's Bryan rather than Bruce, but that's alright. I've actually been called bad names, hah!

Thanks a lot Mike, for giving me another project to ponder.
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Old 09-03-2018, 06:34 PM
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Aha--seems like we're at it again. May I point out that I never wrote anything about 4-screw vs 5-screw, but if people want to look at it that way, why not? I can contend that if it is a 4-screw in the 58000-62449 range it is a 1902 model, and from 62450 upward it is a 5-screw and therefore a 1905 model, regardless of butt configuration.

McHenry & Roper's book I think was the first one about collecting S&W. Neal & Jinks came next, then Jinks' on the history of S&W, followed by the various editions of the SCSW.

Does anyone among the fraternity have S&W advertisements dating from November 1904 into the spring of 1905 announcing the availability of the square butt M&P? If so, I'd like to see if such ads use the term "1905 Model."

The engineering change to the cylinder stop with the related 5th screw at s/n 62450 was made to both round and square butt frames above that number. We all know that S&W stopped referring to 1902 and 1905 around the 3rd change and just cataloged it as "M&P" with two different butt types available.

It seems silly to me (for collector purposes) to call a round butt a 1902 first change and a square butt with identical lockwork a 1905 model. In that case, a round butt model of the 1930s would have to be called a 1902 Fifth Change , would it not? And what happens to the post-WW2 models with the revised safety block & letter-prefix serials?

I think that IF the factory did not begin to use the "1905" term until AFTER the addition of the revised cylinder stop (5th screw), that the square butt frames between 58000 and 62450 can (and should) be accurately described as 1902 First Change guns.

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Old 09-03-2018, 08:47 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
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Quote:
I can contend that if it is a 4-screw in the 58000-62449 range it is a 1902 model, and from 62450 upward it is a 5-screw and therefore a 1905 model, regardless of butt configuration.

62450 is 1905 to 1906. 220,000 is in the range of 1913 to 1915. Lets see what the catalogs say about the upper end of this range. The catalogs were the primary way that the guns were sold, so they tell me what the factory thought it was making and selling.

Here are three pictures from the 1913-1915 Three Pirates Catalog. The first picture is pages 24 and 25.



The next two pictures are close-ups of the upper part of each page.





It's clear to me that, 10 years after the introduction of the Model of 1905, both the 1902 and 1905 were being sold as two separate models. In this context, I don't understand the above quote. The factory certainly didn't think that the Model of 1902 disappeared around 1905.


In fact, it never did disappear. Up until the late 1960's, at least, there are always two different models, depending only on butt configuration.


Mike Priwer

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Old 09-03-2018, 09:43 PM
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Default 38 M&P Round Butt 4" Blue SN: 468688

Mike, According to my notes, I have one ANIB from a 2000 Devine auction, 4" round butt, SN: 468688. I have it marked as a 1905/4th Round Butt. I purchased it then, solely because of the high SN round butt and the impeccable condition. I do not have noted how much I paid but it wasn't cheap back in year 2000 prices, but wasn't insane money. I recall having some stiff competition bidding on it.

Now I have to to look for it. BRB.

I'm back, YUPPERS, the serial number is correct, 4" Round Butt, 38 Special M&P 468688, purchased at a Devine Auction in 2000.

I figure this serial number has to be well into the 1920s. One of those I haven't lettered. My son just asked Roy for a ship date request on it.

I inventoried it as a 1905/4th just because of the serial number but what is it REALLY ?

What do you make of this ?
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  #61  
Old 09-04-2018, 12:00 AM
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SN: 468688

It likely shipped around late 1923 but possibly somewhat later as S&W did not ship in SN order. I list 4664xx as shipping in 10/1923 so yours would necessarily have been manufactured no later than sometime in 1923 regardless of when it was actually shipped. In any event, by that time S&W would have called it the "Military and Police Model, round butt." The Model 1902/1905 nomenclature died at the factory around 1914-15, excluding the fact that some modern collectors continue to use "Model of 1905" to describe M&Ps made 25 to 30 years after that time.

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Old 09-04-2018, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jw mathews View Post
. . . Does anyone among the fraternity have S&W advertisements dating from November 1904 into the spring of 1905 announcing the availability of the square butt M&P? If so, I'd like to see if such ads use the term "1905 Model."
The first image is from a 1905 catalog, but I do not have the text that was on the next page. The second is a price list from January 1, 1906 with 4 different model M&Ps. Hard to read, but the first is a 32 WCF Model 1902, the second is a 32 WCF square handle Model 1905, the third is a 38 M&P Model 1902, and the 4th is a 38 M&P square handle Model 1905. Price difference was $1.00 more for the Model 1905. Last picture is a 1903 catalog for the M&P.
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File Type: jpg 1905 S&W Catalog.jpg (95.4 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg 1906S&WPriceList2.jpg (153.2 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg 1907 S&W Catalog.jpg (109.2 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg 1903 Catalog M 1902.jpg (53.2 KB, 28 views)
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Old 09-04-2018, 10:17 AM
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Time to stir the s...uh, pot.

Did anyone else notice that glowe's catalog referred to these revolvers as being "Hand Extractor", not "Hand Ejector"?
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Old 09-04-2018, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muley Gil View Post
Time to stir the s...uh, pot.

Did anyone else notice that glowe's catalog referred to these revolvers as being "Hand Extractor", not "Hand Ejector"?
Could well be the case as the proper terminology for the rod is "Extractor Rod," not "Ejector Rod."
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Old 09-04-2018, 11:13 AM
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Could well be the case as the proper terminology for the rod is "Extractor Rod," not "Ejector Rod."
If that is the case, the factory was not consistent either.

The attached pages from the 1903 revolver catalog use hand ejector and ejector rod.
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File Type: jpg 99F5BEFB-DF77-4B4D-B4CE-501E2DEFDB71.jpg (52.0 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg F11F78A9-4077-443E-8D63-141AB5E1FC49.jpg (61.0 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg 261CFC27-B601-4C19-9C94-AFB713613AF1.jpg (98.2 KB, 18 views)
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Old 09-04-2018, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
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Could well be the case as the proper terminology for the rod is "Extractor Rod," not "Ejector Rod."
Who says???

I have always wondered why either term is applied, since both are somewhat inaccurate. In shotguns, the extractor pushes the empty to the rear and an ejector applies enough force to hurl the empty out of the gun. If an extractor gun is pointed upward, the empties usually fall out of the chambers, somewhat like a S&W. The cases are never hurled out onto the ground, but only pushed out. I always look at ejection as a term only used with a major force applied to accomplish the task
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Old 09-04-2018, 04:26 PM
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Parts lists usually use extractor rod. So does Brownell's: BROWNELLS EXTRACTOR ROD TOOL FOR S&W | Brownells
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Old 09-04-2018, 05:43 PM
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Old 09-04-2018, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
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SN: 468688

It likely shipped around late 1923 but possibly somewhat later as S&W did not ship in SN order. I list 4664xx as shipping in 10/1923 so yours would necessarily have been manufactured no later than sometime in 1923 regardless of when it was actually shipped. In any event, by that time S&W would have called it the "Military and Police Model, round butt." The Model 1902/1905 nomenclature died at the factory around 1914-15, excluding the fact that some modern collectors continue to use "Model of 1905" to describe M&Ps made 25 to 30 years after that time.
Isn't 468688 a exceptionally high serial number for a round butt M&P ?
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Old 09-04-2018, 06:05 PM
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My evening prayers usually include something hopeful and/or reassuring. Tonight I will include the following:

"A model of 1902 has a round butt. A model of 1905 has a square butt. THAT is the definitive difference."
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Old 09-04-2018, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by model3sw View Post
Isn't 468688 a exceptionally high serial number for a round butt M&P ?
Why would it be? The round-butt variant was available continuously, except for the war years, albeit not a very high percentage of production, and 468688 would put the gun in the mid-1920s.
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Old 09-04-2018, 07:53 PM
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model3sw

Your serial number, as noted, would have been shipped about 1923. Here is a picture from the D3 catalog, dated March 1923.



The gun would have been called a Military & Police, Round Butt, as of 1913. Previously, it would have been Model of 1902.

As to your comment/question about '1905 4th/round butt', that is sheer nonsense. Most of us understand that '1905' means square butt. That is what the historian says. In this context, a 1905 4th change is a square butt gun. If anything, it should be known as a 1902 5th change, meaning the 5th engineering change to the model of 1902. 1902's should be one engineering change ahead of the model of 1905, because the 1905 was introduced after the 1st engineering change to the 1902. Ie, a 1905 is, engineering-change-wise, identical to a 1902 1st change.

Regards, Mike Priwer

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Old 09-04-2018, 10:13 PM
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model3sw

Your serial number, as noted, would have been shipped about 1923. Here is a picture from the D3 catalog, dated March 1923.

The gun would have been called a Military & Police, Round Butt. Its name, as of 1913, would have been Model of 1902.

As to your comment/question about '1905 4th/round butt', that is sheer nonsense. Most of us understand that '1905' means square butt. That is what the historian says. In this context, a 1905 4th change is a square butt gun.

If anything, it should be known as a 1902 5th change, meaning the 5th engineering change to the model of 1902.

1902's should be one engineering change ahead of the model of 1905, because the 1905 was introduced after the 1st engineering change to the 1902. Ie, a 1905 is, engineering-change-wise, identical to a 1902 1st change.

Regards, Mike Priwer
Mike, you answered the next question I was going to ask of "what is the appropriate designation for this model ?" Thank you. Sal Raimondi
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Old 09-05-2018, 05:03 PM
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Default .38 M&P serial 468688 was shipped in March 1924

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Mike, According to my notes, I have one ANIB from a 2000 Devine auction, 4" round butt, SN: 468688. I have it marked as a 1905/4th Round Butt. I purchased it then, solely because of the high SN round butt and the impeccable condition. I do not have noted how much I paid but it wasn't cheap back in year 2000 prices, but wasn't insane money. I recall having some stiff competition bidding on it.

Now I have to to look for it. BRB.

I'm back, YUPPERS, the serial number is correct, 4" Round Butt, 38 Special M&P 468688, purchased at a Devine Auction in 2000.

I figure this serial number has to be well into the 1920s. One of those I haven't lettered. My son just asked Roy for a ship date request on it.

I inventoried it as a 1905/4th just because of the serial number but what is it REALLY ?

What do you make of this ?
Update from Roy: Sal, .38 M&P serial 468688 was shipped in March 1924. I hope that this helps. Roy
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Old 09-05-2018, 06:01 PM
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Thanks guys, I'm recovering from a concussion and this thread just knocked me back about 5 weeks in my therapy.

Really, this kind of thread is exactly what makes this forum so great, I could read this all day, thanks guys for helping me to learn more about these great revolvers!
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Old 09-07-2018, 09:32 PM
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Thanks to Mike & Gary for the catalog images. It is interesting that the square butt guns cost a dollar more than the round butt guns But we still haven't seen any ads from the period 11/1904-5/1905. The catalogs shown by Mike Priwer dating from 1905-'6 admittedly use "1902" for the round butt and "1905" for the square butt. But if the factory's intent was to show current production offerings (at that time), BOTH rb & sb guns would have the 5th screw (in front of the trigger guard). I think we all can agree on that point?

It seems to me that the appellation of "1905" to the square butt frame is an advertising gimmick (hype) on the part of S&W to promote the new frame forging (increased tooling cost to recover). I realize that my use of "1902 (First Change, to be completely accurate) Square Butt" bothers Mike (and maybe some others) but for purposes of collecting, it bothers me that guns using the same internal lockwork are being described as different models.

The older catalogs in the above postings describe the guns as ".38 Military." The "1902" and "1905" designations are subheadings in smaller print. The "M&P" designation came a few years later. Thus, if one insists on going by catalog designations, it seems logical that guns made prior to WWI should be called ".38 Military" as the "Military & Police" did not exist at that time.

So, a "purist" wanting to be accurate to old catalog descriptions, should not describe a K-frame as an "M&P" unless it was made AFTER the factory began adding the "Police" designation in whatever year that occurred!

Others, including Mike & Gary, would probably agree that I am NOT a catalog "purist." I have no objection to a K-frame made prior to 1915 being called an "M&P" even though there was no such thing prior to that time. I think using the term ".38 Military" would be silly even though that language would be 100% accurate per the old catalogs.

It is true that 1,000 of the 1899 models were sold to the US Navy & another 1,000 later to the US Army, but a small order for trials does not constitute widespread military use of those early revolvers. I think we all might agree that the "Military" term became fully justified when S&W began supplying the K-frame 38/200s to the British early in WW2, followed by the "Victory" designated serials for both the UK and US governments. But that does not resolve the inaccurate terminology prior to 1915 or so.

So, what do the rest of you have to say now?

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Old 09-07-2018, 10:32 PM
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"It is true that 1,000 of the 1899 models were sold to the US Navy & another 1,000 later to the US Army, but a small order for trials does not constitute widespread military use of those early revolvers."

In 1900, 1000 revolvers would have armed all of the officers of the Marine Corps and most of the noncoms as well.
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Old 09-08-2018, 02:03 AM
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In 1900, 1000 revolvers would have armed all of the officers of the Marine Corps and most of the noncoms as well.
One of the interesting things is that I‘ve never found much information about who actually got these and if they even ever were issued as regular sidearms to anyone. The only “official” use in which I’ve encountered some (I don’r recall whether the Army or Navy version, but Pate mentions them) was as early emergency shipments to Britain in WW II, along with old refurbished .38 DA Colts.
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Old 09-08-2018, 06:40 AM
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I am new to all this but I grew up around Smith and Wesson revolvers ,handling and shooting my next door neighbor did all the work for the local police department and I hung out at his small shop as much as possible and " thought " I knew something about revolvers in general and Smiths in particular but have learned since finding this forum that I know nothing . So I can only imagine the information overload for someone who knows absolutely nothing and asks about the ok'd revolver they inherited from grandpa. Most probabaly are hoping to get the answer that their revolver is very rare and will fetch enough dollars they can retire to an island somewhere and with tne general 200 to 600 $ valuation their hopes and dreams are dashed but for some if you hook them just right and give them a little information just enough to keep them curious ,then a little more then a little more then let Mr Ralph start throwing in target variations and Mr Sal hitting them up with some special order type stuff then oh yea then Lee delves into some real odd stuff and oh yea Muley Gil he uses the answer but with a question attatched thing just to keep it interesting and first thing you know you guys have gone and hooked a brand new fellow into the fold ,at least that's how it happened with me so keep up the good work and trust me some will not read much past the 1902 / 1905 hand ejector valued at 500 + or - depending but once in a while you will get someone who gets caught up in it all and BAM new member . If I left you out please don't take it wrong I just can't type fast at all and have a lot of catching up to do as I have been away a couple of weeks .Thanks to the op for starting ths thread and thanks to all who have added information .Putting my duct tape and foil hat on now and moving on .
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Old 09-08-2018, 09:27 AM
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Ummmmm.....
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