It's more for me to just learn, but from the reading I've done, it seems like the factory 38/44 load was a lot hotter than .38 +p's are now, no?

I found a few pics of them on the net that are pretty darned sweet. Maybe somebody here owns them......

Also, a lot of the pics of them show magna type stocks, but I would've thought they were made too early to have magnas on them..... I thought they'd have to have the older service type stocks, like on a victory or 1917 but checkered with the medallion.



I find the 4" and shorter N frames with a tapered barrel to be a particularly handsome gun. Well I like pretty much all of the depression Era Smith's the best. They just look the best to my eye.

Member 1Aspenhill is the local HD expert, but the above postwar/gold box examples are proper with Magna stocks. Prewar guns mostly had service stocks but i’ve seen a few with original prewar Magnas also.

By report the .38-44 shot a 158 gr lead bullet at 11-1200 fps. Buffalo Bore makes a similar load today and I’d guess it generates + P pressure levels. Now get searching!

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Somebody call Saxon Pig.

+p still complies with SAAMI pressure limits for a cartridge, so it should be safe in all modern guns in good condition. It will accelerate wear, but unless you're a +p shooting addict, you're probably not ever going to wear out a gun from +p 38 special.

38/44s (heavy duty's and Outdoorsman's) are considered safe to much higher pressure levels. In fact it was common to bore them out for .357 magnum and shoot them with magnum loads and they are alleged to have survived that fine. I never tried that and I haven't run across any such guns but there's supposed to a few floating around. I load my 38/44s to 1100 FPS with 158 grain lead bullets. I suspect that's over SAAMI pressure limits but think they should handle that for generations of normal use.

Current +P ammo is loaded to about what standard pressure cartridges pre-mid 1970's were loaded. SAAMI dropped the accelerant load substantially enough to drop bullet velocity from around 950 fps to ~750 in .38 Special.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

"It's more for me to just learn, but from the reading I've done, it seems like the factory 38/44 load was a lot hotter than .38 +p's are now, no?"

I have not seen any information regarding an actual measured peak chamber pressure of the old .38-44 (not .38/44) cartridge (obsolete since the early 1970s). The original given ballistics of it is in the low 1100s ft/sec MV with a 158 grain lead or metal capped bullet. Using the Quickload program, that MV would require a peak chamber pressure of around 25,000 psi using any of the appropriate slower propellants such as 2400. I think today's .38 Special +P loading is stated to have a maximum SAAMI limit of around 19,000 psi. Typical .38-44 handload recipes from earlier reloading manuals often used Hercules 2400 powder.

During the 1930s, there were no warnings given about dangers from firing the .38-44 cartridge in any .38 Special revolver other than the .38/44 S&W. The Remington 1937 ammunition catalog's only warning was that firing the .38-44 in a lighter-weight .38 Special revolver would result in increased recoil.

If only I had the money for one. But if I were to get an N frame, I would like one like this. I'm not opposed to a .44 special either, but I'm kind of a fan of .38 special.

Check this one out....:

Really? I didn't know that was the case that saami dropped the pressures for standard .38 special.... Wow.

From the standpoint of what SAAMI says or doesn't say about 38 Special, check this out:

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...MI_CFPandR.pdf

Page 12 lists pressure data for 38 special (standard, match, and +P).
Page 47-48 shows cartridge dimensions for 38 special.
There is a lot of data defining pressure test procedures.

All we know for sure about 38/44 relative to SAAMI was that it predates and exceeds 38 special specs, including +P.

Best Regards,
Jim

The 38/44 was often reamed out and loaded with 357 magnum's. I have never heard of any harm caused to any revolver with this loading, so I would think +P would be well below the pressure of any 357's.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Well, that's a beauty, alright, but I think the barrel has been shortened, and the front sight repositioned.

Sort of like my Brazillian "Project" gun:



Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

I love that Brazilian!

25,000psi seems like a good guess. I am sure pressure vary a lot many factors, but it's clear the 38/44 load is meant to be between .357 and standard 38 spcl. And loaded with 11-12 grains of 2400, seems to be exactly what you get. When I used to have a Chronograph, 11 grains put me right around 1,100 fps. That's right between the velocity of a +p 38spcl and .357 velocity.

So to the OPs quest- +p all day every day in a 38/44, no worries. It might shoot high depending on your grip and site picture.

Saxon Pig is no more. He goes by "Art Doc" now.

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'Merica!

Here are the numbers from the time-----------back when. I say "the numbers", there was no discussion of pressures---muzzle velocity and energy only. I'll top that off with some quotes from a discussion on heat treating (of cylinders)---also from the time.

.38 S&W Special (circa 1930-'31): 870 fps-----266 ft. lbs.

.38/44 S&W Special (circa 1930-'31): 1175 fps-----460 ft. lbs.

357 Magnum (circa 1935): 1,515 fps-----807 ft. lbs. (from 8 3/4" barrel)

Heat treating: This from a letter from D.B. Wesson to a customer (circa 1934) discussing heat treating as applied to the K-22 Outdoorsman and the 38/44 Outdoorsman. K-22 was afforded no heat treating "----as the great thickness of the cylinder walls do not demand any further strengthening."----and "-------the steel as it comes from the mill shows a tensile strength in the neighborhood of 80,000 lbs., which does not make the additional strength gained by treating a necessity." Wesson implies the steel from the mill would be entirely satisfactory as is (in the larger calibers), but goes on to say "---------but we do very much prefer the greatly increased factor of safety that is obtained with the 130,000 lbs. elastic limit that the treating gives."

I suspect, but do not know, the heat treating afforded the Outdoorsman (and Heavy Duty) in 1934 was exactly the same as that used for the Magnums a year later.

Ralph Tremaine

I cannot speak for the .38/44 Heavy Duty as I don't often shoot them, however, the pre-war .38/44 Outdoorsman is one of my favorites.

Many years back, another member and I, took our pre-war .38/44 Outdoorsman to the police range where he worked. We were afforded to use up all the old bulk target ammo there was and we gladly obliged.

2 different, 95%+ .38/44 Outdoorsmans with PD reloaded .38 specials, we had flyers all over the place. We sand-bagged the barrels .... same thing. We were baffled.

I go into my range box for an old box of factory pack .38 Special (non +P) and the accuracy improved but only somewhat.

I then dug out a box of S&W, Nyclads in .38 Special +P. With the +P factory packs ... BOTH Outdoorsmans performed excellently.

Since that day (over 25 years ago), whenever I target one of my pre-war Outdoorsmans, I always shoot with either my own, hand load +Ps, or a factory pack +P. I am NEVER disappointed with the performance, buttery sweet trigger nor the perfect craftsmanship of either pre-war .38/44 ODs.

I'm amazed that over the past 20 years the values of the .38/44 HD and 38/44 Outdoorsman have not increased in value.

One day soon, they prices will skyrocket when re-discovered what fine revolvers they are.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I have 2 .38-44 HDs and an Outdoorsman. Some years back I set out to duplicate the original .34-44 HD load. I found a lot of varying data and actually went way over with a couple of my experiments. I finally settled on a hard cast 158gr RNFP over a healthy charge of 2400 which gave me a chronographed velocity of 1180 fps.
So yeah, there ain't a .38 Special +P factory load made that will make a good .38-44 break a sweat.

It is actually possible to reload .38 Special cases to reach near-.357 Magnum performance, especially if the bullet is seated a little further out. But that's not a good idea if the intent is to use such loads in .38 Special revolvers. The extra case length of the .357 cartridge is there mainly so that .357 Magnum cartridges cannot be seated fully into .38 Special chambers.

My HD had adj. sights put on it and the load I make gets 1200 fps with a 160 gr KSWC.
Not a N frame 357 Magnum, but close enough for me....

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

I have a mid-1950s HD having the lengthened .357 chambers. While I have fired some .357 Magnum factory loads in it without issues, I normally just use my handloaded .38 Special wadcutters. But it's nice to know that I can use .357 Magnum ammunition should the need arise. As mine is an old cop gun anyway, the lengthened chambers don't affect its value. I have always sort of wondered why S&W didn't make a factory .357 HD with an eye toward the LE market.

I wonder the same thing, something like the 520, would have been so cool. I know they'd be popular with collectors now, but S&W must have judged the market wasn't there at that time.

I have a question for you guys.
How does the cylinder length of the various 38/44s compare with that of their contemporaneous 357s?
For example, a post war transitional 38/44 to a post war Magnum, or, a pre war 38/44 HD to a pre war registered Magnum?

A lot of people reloaded the 357 to fairly high power using the Lyman 358156 seated out to the lower crimp groove in a 38 Special case. The OAL matched that of the same bullet in a 357 case, but seated deeper so it was crimped in the upper crimp groove.
This is precisely the practice intended by the design of the slug.

What I'm getting at is whether such a load in a 38 Special case would chamber in a 38/44.
PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT advocating the practice, just wondering if the cylinder length of any of the 38/44s accommodates the load in question.

Thanks,
Jim

Now I really want one. But the fact is I don't think it would do anything more than my Model 19 would do. I just like the way the 38/44 with the shorter barrels look.

Some day I'd at least like to shoot some of these old smiths. But the fact is, it is a rare case that someone brings an old smith to the range. It's all Glocks and 1911's usually. I'm only 46, but I'm so old fashioned. I just don't like all the new stuff. I don't even want a stupid I phone. I just want one that works. But I'd rather not even have to have one. It just is prudent to have one. And if you want to talk with anybody any more, you practically have to.

After you handle an N-frame S&W awhile, you will be happy you don't have to carry one around on your belt all day.

I shoot this bullet in my Outdoorsman with 11.0 gr. of 2400, seated 1.46, I use a gas check although was told it would be unnecessary. In the big Outdoorsman it is a comfortable load and quite accurate, no sign of leading problems so I'll stick with the gas check.

Mine was reamed when I bought it so I shoot 357's in it.

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S&W Accumulator

I just took my Grandfather's Pre-War .38-44 Outdoorsman to the range for the first time, using +P's, exclusively.

It was the nicest shooting gun I've every fired. It was dead-on accurate and easy. Even my son's fiance', with some of the smallest hands I've seen, shot and loved the OD.

I will always use +P in that gun, now.

Pics of Guns and targets???? !!!!!

Freshly cleaned, after the range day...


The entire package of my Grandfather's OD, holster, belt, tool, and box.



Four of us were sharing targets so, we tossed them out. No pics but, here is a snippit of the small-handed one shooting.

https://i.imgur.com/k7S7KIt.mp4

[IMG][/IMG]



This is my Brazilian that was nicely refinished, she had some serious acne but was polished out fairly even when I picked her up. I had her cut down to 4", Baughman style front sight and Wondersight added to the rear. With the aid of the Wondersight she will shoot to point of aim at 15yds and do it rather nicely I must say.

Somebody needs to reduce the image size.

I consider mainstream +P to be a mild target load. Here's an ad for S&W ammo from the 1970s. Compare these standard pressure loads to 125@925 +P "Powerhouse" (snicker). The whole +P mystique baffles me. Concept was created by corporate lawyers.




Here's an old ad stating the 38/44 load can be used in the M&P.

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No life story has happy end.

JIM, IIRC the 38/44 cylinder is shorter at the rear only since it is not counterbored like the .357.
In other words the barrel forcing cone protrusion into the frame window is the same length,
Theoretically this would allow someone to fit a longer (at the rear only) .357 cylinder to a 38-44 if they so desired since the case head / primer would be in the exact same position .

If God didn't want people to use gaschecks for hot loads She wouldn't have created leading.

I shoot my 38/44s Heavy Duty revolvers with the same load, 11.0 grains 2400 and the Lyman 358156 gascheck bullet. Initially I cast this bullet from linotype but got just as good results from wheelweights, which I attribute to the gaschecks. I crimp the bullet in the lower groove, in the manner of the late Charles 'Skeeter' Skelton. There is sufficient case capacity for 11 grains of powder without this practice, but it makes the rounds readily identifiable to preclude mistakenly using them in less robust .38s.