The Round Butt K-Frame .38 Special Thread

[bmcgilvray]

This thread is an outgrowth of the " Model 1902 M&P in 38spl HELP" thread currently running on the Forum.

Model 1902 M&P in 38spl HELP

In post number 67 model3sw asks:
"Isn't 468688 a exceptionally high serial number for a round butt M&P ?"

How about let's have a Forum photographic survey of round butt variants of the K-Frame .38 Special revolver from its introduction to the present? This could include all .38 Special Military & Police revolvers as well as all Model 10 revolvers made since 1899.

I've thought before of how the round butt variants through the years could be a rewarding collecting tangent within the K-Frame revolver itself. I'm aware that round butt K-Frames were offered consistently through the model's history but were not always very popular at times. At this point if a person wants a fixed sight .38 Special K-Frame, the round butt is all that is available in the current catalog as far as I know.

I'm wondering if the Forum can exhibit photos of round butt K-Frame .38 Special revolvers from each decade of K-Frame existence. Which decade will be found to have the fewest numbers of round butt K-Frame revolvers featured by Forum members?

Let's open this thread to any and all fixed sight K-Frame Military & Police or Model 10 round butt revolver. Aw ... let's go ahead and include any round butt K-Frame in .32-20, but leave out Magnum K-Frames or rim fire K-Frames.

My hand is permanently molded to fit a square butt K-Frame revolver yet I have always liked the notion of the round butt K-Frame. I find that they handle really well. I don't have that many round butt K-Frames on hand.


No. 50587 likely from 1904



No. 296148 likely from 1919



No. BSW6431 Purchased new in early January of 1996. Was special ordered by my gun shop after I had no luck finding a new one. I wonder how near the end of 2-inch Model 10 production is this revolver?

[Peak53]

M&P .38 5" 1921
And a M 10-5 4" 1965
I guess I like Tyler's on these RB K frames

[LEO918]

Here's one of mine...

[hkcavalier]

5" M&P, 1917.

[STCM(SW)]

M10-5 RB and M640

[thadheth]

Circa 1921 with incorrect (but nice fitting) grips.

[glowe]

Here is a representation of all standard barrel lengths for the 32 Winchester Model 1899, 4", 5", and 6 1/2, along with both walnut and hard rubber stocks that were available at the turn of the Twentieth Century.

For symmetry, I threw in a 1906 shipped either Model 1902 or Model 1905, or . . . ???

[DocB]

Shipped either right before WWI or right after. About as perfect as any I've ever seen.

[Donald Paul]

… my later model 10 round butt {three inch}
{NIB}
Nothing special about it, just neat.
-Don

[bmcgilvray]

Originally Posted by LEO918

Here's one of mine...

Prewar example of a 2-inch?

[Freddie1250]

Here's mine:

[MajorD]

While I prefer square butt revolvers, some nice examples here of the rb
One thing I wonder- with the popularity of the magna plus Tyler t grip arrangement why a grip maker hasn’t simply made grips of the same shape?

[vrichard]

Got this one a couple weeks ago. c74939
Dick

[JayCeeNC]

A couple of .38 M&P round butts circa 1918:

[rct269]

My one and only is known as "Mr. Sam's gun". It's a 4" .38 Special M&P #354467, shipped November 16, 1920; and purchased by my father-in-law the same year. It spent the next 55-60 years riding around in the hip pocket of his overalls.

His contemporaries spoke of "Sammy" being able to put six rounds into a fence post from the back of a galloping horse with it---riding bareback. When I asked "Mr. Sam" about it, he just smiled.

Ralph Tremaine

[zipty6]

4" Model 12-3 from 1982.
Sadly, this one's moving to a new home tomorrow.

[larryofcc]

3rd. model # 230842. No letter yet. Big Larry

[elm_creek_smith]

Model12Armor.jpg

1963 Model 12-2

[LEO918]

bmcgilvary:
Yes Pre War 2" example - 1939.

[tennexplorer]

How about a home made one?

Before





I had the whole gun. Didn't take any pictures until I had it apart.

After





Revolver was surplused off from a local guard company. Perfect insides; probably never shot. Ratty outside. Found a three inch "parts kit" on Gunbroker.

[zipty6]

I believe this .38 Military & Police Airweight to be from 1956, but I may be off by a year.

[elm_creek_smith]

Originally Posted by zipty6

4" Model 12-3 from 1982.
Sadly, this one's moving to a new home tomorrow.

No-o-o-o!

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[mikepriwer]

Bryan

I'll start now with two guns for which I already have the pictures on this forum. These are two sequential-serial-number 2" .38 M&P's. Serial numbers are 694105 & 694106.





694105 was the subject of longish story in the Autumn 1993 S&WCA Journal. It was shipped in 1946, which I thought was very late and very strange. The other gun, 694106, with the wood stocks, was shipped in 1940, which is the 'right' date for that serial number.

The reason for this shipping-date-mismatch is not completely understood, although a lot more is known about it since 1993. The US was already beginning preparations for WW2 in 1940, and the late-shipped guns from that period are all 2" round-butt .38 M&P's. Most square butt 2" M&P's were shipped at the 'right' time, as were other barrel lengths. 694106 was a LEO shipment, going to the Boston PD. 694105 was a commercial shipment, going to Lou Eppinger Guns in Detroit.

694105 has the hard black rubber grips, and 694106 has the checkered walnut grips. There are, now, several other known 2" round-butt .38 M&P's within very close serial-number proximity, that are also late shipped - exactly like 694105. 694101 is one of them.

It's now thought, and I emphasize thought, that the 2" round-butt guns, in the summer of 1940, were needed for some military training, and were being withheld from the commercial market. 694106 went to an LEO organization; apparently they were exempt from being diverted to this other use.

At the time I wrote the story in 1993, Roy Jinks took a person interest in the late shipment date, and wrote a one-page addition. Here is a copy of Roy's addition to the story.




I'll continue my contribution to this thread when I get some more pictures posted.

Regards, Mike Priwer

[SVT28]

Here's my humble contribution to this thread. I left out the 64s as the model 10/12 looks to be the focal point here. I'm still on the hunt for a pre war round butt at a good price. Pictured are 2 model 10 4 screw no dashes, serials a couple hundred away, a really early 10-5 and a 12-3 also snuck into the picture All of my k frame snubs have a special place in my heart.

SVT28



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[tomdrpm]

Here is my only RB K frame. SN C395505 Non model number marked, 4 screws. No serial number on barrel or cylinder. Stocks are numbered to the frame. Also shown with some genuine Roper square butt conversion stocks and custom holster.

[bigwagon]

At the time I wrote the story in 1993, Roy Jinks took a person interest in the late shipment date, and wrote a one-page addition. Here is a copy of Roy's addition to the story.

Interesting comment about the possible South African connection. That mark could also be ZA for Zuid-Afrikaanse.

[bigwagon]

Here's my contribution: a pre-war 2-inch M&P. I replaced the incorrect grips with a set of hard rubber grips since this was taken.

[bruce5781]

5" 32-20 Target Model

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[mikepriwer]

That mark could also be ZA for Zuid-Afrikaanse.

Bigwagon:

Its not a military mark. Kevin Williams did a very thorough search, and its not military.
I believe it's "VA" run together, and I have reason to believe it stands for Van Allen, perhaps someone's name. I'll try to post a document that suggests that.

Regards, Mike Priwer

[bruce5781]

Model of 1899 38 Spl.
Edit: Oops. Looks like I got two different guns in there.


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[Toyman]

64-6 shipped July 2008 MIM parts but no lock. must have been in vault for a few years.

[max503]

Originally Posted by tennexplorer

How about a home made one?

Before





I had the whole gun. Didn't take any pictures until I had it apart.

After





Revolver was surplused off from a local guard company. Perfect insides; probably never shot. Ratty outside. Found a three inch "parts kit" on Gunbroker.

Maj. George Nonte wrote extensively about converting square butt guns to round butt. He also wrote about shortening barrels and stuff like that.

[cmansguns]

US Army Model 1899, barrel marked 38 Mil, s/n 13030, I believe the gun is the lowest s/n in the data base of the 1000 made (s/n 13001 to 14000 per SCSW)

I have heard that "38 Mil" was the modern smokeless (circa 1900) that was also known as 38 Long Colt.

Can I play without the 38 Special on the bbl marks?

Needless to say.....I'm not contemplating running +P through this old gun!

[larryofcc]

Originally Posted by cmansguns

US Army Model 1899, barrel marked 38 Mil, s/n 13030, I believe the gun is the lowest s/n in the data base of the 1000 made (s/n 13001 to 14000 per SCSW)

I have heard that "38 Mil" was the modern smokeless (circa 1900) that was also known as 38 Long Colt.

Can I play without the 38 Special on the bbl marks?

Needless to say.....I'm not contemplating running +P through this old gun!

Is that a KSM on the stocks? Big Larry

[bruce5781]

Model of 1899 #16436
Shipped October 1901.

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[cmansguns]

Originally Posted by larryofcc

Is that a KSM on the stocks? Big Larry

Larryofcc;

The KSM (US Army Ordnance Inspector, Kelly S Morse) is on the left frame (above the grip) and also on the right stock panel. The left stock panel is JTT (John T. Thompson of Tommy gun fame) also a US Army Inspector and the number 1901.

Still trying to find out what the "02" stamped on lower left grip panel stands for.

[scha]

How about a Model 64 Round Butt with Tapered Barrel. I sent a used 64 and a used barrel to the factory and they did the conversion. This is a Model 64-5 from 1989 and it is one of my favorite revolvers to shoot.

[les.b]

I don't have a lot of these, and not sure where the photos all are, but here's one to get started...shipped in April, 1949:



Edit...correct the ship date. I had mistyped "1945", I meant to type "1949". Just noticed the typo. Big difference!!

Best Regards, Les

[RKmesa]

...another stubby M&P...

[BE Mike]

My model 10-5. When I saw it for a good price, I snapped it up for sentimental reasons. It is just like the one I was issued in 1968 in RVN, minus the grip adapter. It isn't my favorite revolver to shoot, but I'll probably not part with it.

[mikepriwer]

Here is my next contribution. The next two pictures are two 8" 1899 .38 target revolvers. One is blue, and the other nickel. The blue one was shipped to Dr Reginald Sayre. He was a very competitive shooter, and was USA Olympic Team captain for the 1908, 1912, and 1916 Olympics.





The next two pictures are 6.5" .38 1899 target revovlers, one blue and one nickel.





Next are two 6" 1899 targets, one blue and one nickel.





Next are two 5" 1899 targets, one blue and one nickel.





Finally, for this group of guns, are two 4" 1899 targets, one nickel and one blue.





The next two pictures are 1902 1st chg blue revolvers. One is an M&P, and the other a target.





Regards, Mike Priwer

[larryofcc]

Originally Posted by cmansguns

Larryofcc;

The KSM (US Army Ordnance Inspector, Kelly S Morse) is on the left frame (above the grip) and also on the right stock panel. The left stock panel is JTT (John T. Thompson of Tommy gun fame) also a US Army Inspector and the number 1901.

Still trying to find out what the "02" stamped on lower left grip panel stands for.

Do not know about the "02", but I am privileged to own one of Mr. Thompsons inventions. Thanks, Big Larry

[bmcgilvray]

Y'all are making me all weak in the knees with these neato photographs.

Have we got at least one example from every decade of the 20th century featured here, as well as an example from 2008? I'm not seeing one from the 1920s or 1970s yet.

[beagleye]

You greedy sons of guns are hogging em all up, no wonder I never see any.

[cmansguns]

Originally Posted by les.b

I don't have a lot of these, and not sure where the photos all are, but here's one to get started...shipped in April, 1945:



Best Regards, Les

Les,

That one's a beaut! EXACTLY the perfect amount of "character" for my taste. "respectable" turn line, muzzle wear and finish indicative of lots of carry probably in the line of duty somewhere, vintage Pachy grip adapter, grips show daily handling maybe by a LEO as he loaded/unloaded at the start/end of a shift...... When I was growing up, 8 years old in 1953, our next door neighbor was a Vice Dick and I played with his son same age. I still recall him getting ready to go to work around 3 or 4 pm and just before donning his blazer, a 38 just like yours would come off a shelf above the frig, get loaded, slipped into a shoulder rig...kiss the wife, tousle the sons hair, wink at me...and off to whatever vice cops do during the late night hours.

I would be inclined to trade any of my ANIB 38 snubbies if I ever run across one like yours.

Do you know of, or have the backstory on yours?

[CptCurl]

Here's my 1902 Navy:









I show it in more detail at this thread: .38 M&P Model 1902 U.S. Navy No. 25188

Curl

[bwdilli]

How about this 3" Model 547 but that's 9mm not 38 special.





or maybe this Target 1899, but you wanted fixed sights.



These 3 38 M&P Model of 1905, 4th change might do the trick.



Or maybe this 38 M&P Model of 1905, 4th change with a 4" barrel and HBH. Also shipped to Shaker Heights PD in Ohio.

[mikepriwer]

This is my third posting to this thread. It has three guns, all of which are important, at least to me, in one way or another.

The first gun is a 6 1/2" .38 semi-target, meaning a target front sight blade, and a fixed rear sight notch. It was special ordered with a Lyman Ivory Bead front sight blade, an augmented rear sight notch, checkered trigger, and checkered walnut stocks.





This next picture is a close-up of the front sight blade. Its marked "Lyman Pat Oct 6 85", meaning 1885, not 1985!



The last picture looks directly down on the re sight notch. There is a tube-like piece pressed into the notch. It looks like a rainbow, but its been temper-colored in such a way that its bluish end is what one sights through.



The next gun is a 4" .38 M&P, shipped 1/27/1913. This is the highest serial-number 4" I have seen with the patent date roll markings on the side. Sometime after this, a new roll marking die was used for the 4" barrels, made up so that the markings once again fit on top of the barrel. They had to be moved to the side at the introduction of the 1902 1st change. This change added a shoulder to the barrel where it meets the frame, which interfered with the roll marking die.







The last gun of this posting is one of Ed McGivern's special order guns. It a 2 7/8" round-butt .38 target, shipped about 1936, with fixed sights. He sent it back to the factory in 1936, telling Doug Wesson that for the purpose of this gun, fixed sights were as useful as "the average wart on a pickle". The gun was shortly returned to him, with target sights. I think that McGivern made the hammer alteration.

The gun letters as open on the shipping records, which did not surprise the historian, in the letter that he wrote. Many years later, he told me that the serial number is in the middle of a block of Outdoorsman 22's. The grips were too long, as though the original serial number had been milled off, and replaced with its current serial number.

I've always thought that the factory simply replaced his original frame with another one
that was made up for adjustable sights. They may have re-serial-numbered it to his original serial number. All in all, a bit confusing.





Regards, Mike Priwer

[bruce5781]

Military & Police .38 Spl. Target. Factory checkered backstrap, forestrap & trigger.

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[les.b]

Originally Posted by bmcgilvray

Y'all are making me all weak in the knees with these neato photographs.

Have we got at least one example from every decade of the 20th century featured here, as well as an example from 2008? I'm not seeing one from the 1920s or 1970s yet.

I have one from the seventies, a blued.38 Special 2" RB model 10, but am having trouble finding a picture right now... As soon as I can, I'll post it!!

Edit...boy I'm slipping tonight. Found a pic of the gun I was thinking about, very poor picture, I'll try to take a better one soon. Anyway, I was wrong. Roy says this one shipped in October, 1987. My bad. It's a 10-7. The GF has appropriated it, so I don't see it all that often!!

Here's a temporary pic until I can get a better....at least it's a RB and a 38 K frame!!



Best Regards, Les