Help with Victory Model serial numbers

mikepriwer · #1 09-17-2018, 04:57 PM

The following picture shows three (3) different butt serial numbers.

The fist two - 694105 & 694106 - are pre-WW2 serial numbers, from about 1939 - 1940. The third one - S832816 - is a post-WW2 serial number, from about 1946. You'll notice the height difference, and font differences, between the two pre-WW2 numbers and the post-WW2 serial number.

I'm looking for the spot where the factory changed from the pre-WW2 font to the post-WW2 font. Its been suggested that perhaps it happened right at the beginning of the V-prefix to the serial numbers.

To the right of the serial numbers, I've shown their approximate height, in inches and millimeters.

To those who own a Victory serial-numbered gun, would you be so kind as to measure the height of the butt serial number stamping ? I did the measuring with a machinist scale, by eye, so I'm only looking for that kind of measurement.

I'll need the full serial number. If you don't want to post it here, perhaps you can email it to me, at [email protected]. If you have a picture, that would be nice, but its not necessary.

Regards, Mike Priwer

two-bit cowboy · #2 09-17-2018, 05:47 PM

V467553 shipped December 15, 1943.

The sn is ⅛" tall (3mm).

handejector · #3 09-17-2018, 06:57 PM

Mike and I talked about this today via email.
I sent him a pic of a Pre Victory, 4" 38 Spec- 8988XX with the old font/size. Pic attached.
So, did the change occur in the 900,000s, or the V series?
What we need is some LOW numbered Vics and HIGH numbered first million.

Babysitr · #4 09-17-2018, 09:12 PM

SV 78523x has size less than 1/4" .....pics' later if you need them...??

jayn.32 · #5 09-17-2018, 09:47 PM

my largest ser pre-v is948634 in small font. My lowest ser v is v137492 in large font. Hope this helps.

mikepriwer · #6 09-17-2018, 09:57 PM

Babysitr

That should be the larger one. It is slightly less than 1/4", but definitely more than 3/32". A picture would be interesting to see.

Jayn.32

Yes - that helps. That is the closest bracket that I have, so far. Thanks.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Absalom · #7 09-18-2018, 01:37 AM

I‘m pretty sure this is the larger font, although I can‘t measure as I‘m out of town and can access only the photo, not the gun.

chiefdave · #8 09-18-2018, 08:10 AM

Highest pre-Victory 926037 in small font. Lowest Victory V3193 large font. Glad S&W stopped using the long tail 9. Cost me $75 to get a letter when I mistook a 9 for an 8 on a pre-Victory.

DWL · #9 09-18-2018, 11:33 AM

I have Pre Victory 984535. Small font, 3/32".

DWalt · #10 09-18-2018, 08:04 PM

Information so far suggests that the size changed when the V-series numbering started. A logical time to do it.

mikepriwer · #11 09-18-2018, 08:14 PM

Absalom

Is that serial number start with a V ? It looks like the large font, but the evidence so far is that it starts with the Victory model prefix. When you get a chance, is there a V on the rear face of the cylinder, or the underside of the barrel ?

Regards, Mike Priwer

opoefc · #12 09-18-2018, 08:36 PM

Mike, Take a look at the S&WCA Journal article I wrote some years ago on my examination of Victory Model serial number 1. I don't have immediate access to a copy, as it's in storage, however I believe I had good photos of the gun as well as about 1/2 doz. other close serial numbers for comparison. At the time, the thinking was that No. 1, which was presented in 1948 to Pres. Truman, might not be the original serial No. 1 Victory, as records indicate it was presented to an unknown General in WW2,( S&W records were unclear ) and might be a copy made up by S&W for the presentation to Truman. By later research I determined that the Truman gun was the original V1, restored by S&W for later presentation to Truman by Hellstrom. It had first been given to General William Knudsen, CEO of General Motors, who was appointed a Lt. General of the Army and Chief of all WW2 wartime production by President Roosevelt. Knudsen was a close friend of Hellstrom and returned V1 to S&W after the war. V1 was rebuilt, with the new safety hammer, deluxe cased, etc. for Truman, and reposes in the Truman Library. I also later determined that Victory Models, serial 1,000,000 and V1 thru V5 were made up by the Service Dept. at S&W for presentation guns and were not part of the military inspected Victory Model production line. Guns number 1,000,000 and V5 are at the Springfield History Museum as part of the donated factory collection. Ed.

Absalom · #13 09-19-2018, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikepriwer

Absalom

Is that serial number start with a V ? It looks like the large font, but the evidence so far is that it starts with the Victory model prefix. When you get a chance, is there a V on the rear face of the cylinder, or the underside of the barrel ?

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike:

No, it is definitely not a V gun (which would not be possible with a six-digit starting with a 9 anyways). It is all matching.

It is a gun of some puzzles though. It shipped in a batch of 100 directly to the DSC on 1/27/42, and as such would have been unmarked. At some point after 1943 it must have been returned to the factory where it went through the ordnance inspection process and received the US PROPERTY GHD topstrap stamp and the triple P proofs on frame, barrel, and cylinder (which were not in use until mid-1943/early 1944).

Not only is the serial apparently stamped in the larger font, it is also stamped in the Victory position (behind the hole viewed from the reading position) rather than in front. It shows no signs of restamping or refinish, though.

I asked Bill Cross to see whether the SWHF records showed anything on the gun, but no luck.

handejector · #14 09-19-2018, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absalom

No, it is definitely not a V gun (which would not be possible with a six-digit starting with a 9 anyways). It is all matching.

It is a gun of some puzzles though. It shipped in a batch of 100 directly to the DSC on 1/27/42, and as such would have been unmarked. At some point after 1943 it must have been returned to the factory where it went through the ordnance inspection process and received the US PROPERTY GHD topstrap stamp and the triple P proofs on frame, barrel, and cylinder (which were not in use until mid-1943/early 1944).

Not only is the serial apparently stamped in the larger font, it is also stamped in the Victory position (behind the hole viewed from the reading position) rather than in front. It shows no signs of restamping or refinish, though.

The gun I show above, 8988XX, is all matching, including grips.
There is a P on the frame, but NOT on barrel or cylinder. There is an S on bottom of barrel and right grip frame, probably denoting Service Dept. Don't forget that many guns were failing inspection and requiring Service Dept attention.

Topstrap is bare.
No other Ordnance marks.

When I bought the gun, I was negotiating on several guns from the seller.
He said this gun was lettered. When it came time to pick them up, the pic shows what I got.

cmansguns · #15 09-19-2018, 12:10 PM

My Navy Victory is s/n V 192216, large font, no S for hammer block on frame. Probably late 42 early 43. Have not lettered.

mikepriwer · #16 09-19-2018, 12:27 PM

Lee

Whatever 898836 is, its a very nice gun !

Regards, Mike Priwer

mikepriwer · #17 09-19-2018, 12:51 PM

Ed

I've read your V1 story several time, and will read it again. I keep an extra copy of that Journal with my Cecil King information, because Cecil King was involved in delivering V1 to President Truman. The story is in Vol 33, Number 3, Winter 1999.

Here is the image of the butt serial number, from your story.

For sure, that is not the pre-WW2 die stamp for a '1'. That die stamp has a horizontal bar across the bottom of the '1'. It might be the larger font, but I can't tell for sure. Thanks for reviving this story !

Generally, I'm not looking for an exact transition point for the butt serial number font. All I wanted was a confirmation that it did change - somewhere- between pre-WW2 and then later. I now have a sufficient number of observations to establish empirically, that it was somewhere early in the V series. Thanks to everyone who has contributed observations.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Babysitr · #18 09-19-2018, 05:18 PM

not sure what one this is .........

Absalom · #19 09-20-2018, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babysitr

not sure what one this is .........

That seems to be an SV serial, a late Victory with the new hammer block from early 1945. Definitely large font.